Current Form in the National League.

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Yorkieandy
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Current Form in the National League.

Post by Yorkieandy » 14 Feb 2018, 18:50

Barrow have serious off field concerns regarding their owner and there have been questions asked for some time now so doing poorly at Barrow isn't really a negative on the CV. Guiseley are punching above their weight in terms of size of club and budget but on paper their squad shouldn't be where it is. In that respect Cox was doing a below expected job at the Lions and had plenty of opportunity to turn things around. As Yates has done at Solihull with minimal funds.

I also don't subscribe to this "where do they expect to find a better replacement?" nonsense. It's as if there are no other human beings on the planet that are capable of finishing 5th bottom with Guiseley.
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Post by lucy6lucy » 14 Feb 2018, 19:14

Dazza wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 18:19
There is always a risk taking on a club like Guiseley. Despite all their ambitious they clearly have been punching above their weight. Crowd size still equals playing budget in some locations.
Guiesley going full time was surely an unsustainable decision on their attendances, 543 last night.
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Post by MellowYellow » 14 Feb 2018, 21:26

lucy6lucy wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 19:14
Dazza wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 18:19
There is always a risk taking on a club like Guiseley. Despite all their ambitious they clearly have been punching above their weight. Crowd size still equals playing budget in some locations.
Guiesley going full time was surely an unsustainable decision on their attendances, 543 last night.
At least they have better website than us :whistle:
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Post by Plainmoor78 » 15 Feb 2018, 01:17

MellowYellow wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 21:26

At least they have better website than us :whistle:
Not really.


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Post by Plainmoor78 » 15 Feb 2018, 01:36

lucy6lucy wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 19:14
Dazza wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 18:19
There is always a risk taking on a club like Guiseley. Despite all their ambitious they clearly have been punching above their weight. Crowd size still equals playing budget in some locations.
Guiesley going full time was surely an unsustainable decision on their attendances, 543 last night.
Guiseley's average home attendance so far this season is 957, as you say this is too low to maintain full time professional status. Even the chairman of Eastleigh (average attendance 2016) is saying he no longer thinks it possible to buy his way out of this league.

The truth is that after over 30 years of a nationwide league at the non league level it is becoming apparent that it is no longer sustainable. That will apply for us as well. The prospect of regional football is something that will become a reality rather than something that can be avoided through footballing means.


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Post by merse btpir » 15 Feb 2018, 09:13

When this structure was first set up it was called the Alliance Premier League from 1979 until 1986. Between 1986 and 2015, the league was known as the Football Conference. Most of the National League clubs are now fully professional as opposed to the wholly part-time ideals of the original concept, while most National League North and National League South clubs are semi-professional so that in effect it is they who have retained the original ethos and those above who have become wanabee Football League clubs......

The first fully professional clubs in non-league football were those which had been in the English Football League (EFL) in the past, as opposed to those who had always been non-League; but gradually this idea has been eroded to what we have today where just a minority of NL clubs ~ Bromley, Halifax Town, Maidenhead United, Maidstone (currently evolving into full-time) Solihull Moors, Sutton United, and Woking (also evolving into full-time) with all those still part-time, training in the day-time so that playing football is the main income and flexible, non skilled employment making up the shortfall in income for the players. There are no butchers, baker and candlestick makers in this league!

The National League was formed in 1979 from leading teams in the Northern Premier League and Southern League and was originally known as the Alliance Premier Football League. The founding members were:
AP Leamington
Altrincham
Bangor City
Barnet
Barrow
Bath City
Boston United
Gravesend & Northfleet (now Ebbsfleet United)
Kettering Town
Maidstone United
Northwich Victoria
Nuneaton Borough
Redditch United
Scarborough
Stafford Rangers
Telford United
Wealdstone
Weymouth
Worcester City
Yeovil Town


Interesting to see where all those clubs are now; with just three ~ Ebbsfleet, Maidstone & Barrow ~ still in situ and that after some dramatic to-ing and fro-ing. Only Barnet and Yeovil exist in the EFL today and of them they could both be back in non-league football next season.

Former National League clubs now in the EFL:
Accrington Stanley
2003–2006
League Two
AFC Wimbledon
2009–2011
League One
Barnet
1979–1991; 2001–2005; 2013–2015
League Two
Bristol Rovers
2014–2015
League One
Burton Albion
2002–2009
Championship
Cambridge United
2005–2014
League Two
Carlisle United
2004–2005
League Two
Cheltenham Town
1997–1999; 2015–2016
League Two
Colchester United
1990–1992
League Two
Crawley Town
2004–2011
League Two
Doncaster Rovers
1998–2003
League One
Exeter City
2003–2008
League Two
Fleetwood Town
2010–2012
League One
Forest Green Rovers
1998–2017
League Two
Grimsby Town
2010–2016
League Two
Lincoln City
1987–1988; 2011–2017
League Two
Luton Town
2009–2014
League Two
Mansfield Town
2008–2013
League Two
Morecambe
1995–2007
League Two
Newport County
2010–2013
League Two
Oxford United
2006–2010
League One
Shrewsbury Town
2003–2004
League One
Stevenage
1994–2010
League Two
Wycombe Wanderers
1985–1986; 1987–1993
League Two
Yeovil Town
1979–1985; 1988–1995; 1997–2003
League Two


Barnet are the only founding member who have remained in the top five levels continuously since 1979. Bangor City have since moved to the Welsh football league system, while AP Leamington, Maidstone, Nuneaton, Scarborough and Telford later collapsed and were reconstituted in lower English leagues.


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Post by westyorkshiregull » 15 Feb 2018, 09:53

Great post merse I love this kind of stuff .....will read it better later when not working....love the history of the alliance and conference


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Post by Dazza » 15 Feb 2018, 09:58

Interesting information Merse. Excellent. I think the point you are presenting about there almost being the two types of part time that have emerged is also a very interesting. The situation has clearly changed since 1979.
. It is a situation that if you think about, is obviously constantly evolving. If you have or want any form of career it's impossible to be a National League 'part timer'.


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Post by merse btpir » 15 Feb 2018, 10:16

The manner in which part-time' football has evolved is that it is now more akin to the continental model than the old English style where 'hobby footballers' could interject with former professionals on the way down to come together in the evenings and form a fit for purpose part-time club playing at the highest levels of the non-league game.

In the south, this still happens at Isthmian League level ~ where it is almost hundred per cent train in the evenings ~ although I know of a lot of youngsters playing here who still see this as their number one occupation and use it as a means to climb higher up the ladder.

Boreham Wood is an interesting module in that they only pay what would be considered by many to be a 'part-time' wage for playing, insist the players train in the day time but offer them extra remuneration and the chance to enhance their career after playing prospects by employing them as coaches in their development system which also operates during the daytime as a Cat 4 (PASE) Academy. They also offer extra hours working in their football in the community and after school soccer clubs.

It cannot be denied that this is a very successful format on which to run a club that attracts such a low level of support.


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Post by CP Gull » 15 Feb 2018, 11:13

Along similar lines, I was quite frankly staggered the other day to read a quote from Alan Devonshire (Maidenhead Manager) when he stated that it was only Halifax and themselves who were part time in the National League. Where have they all gone?

I believe both Chester and Guiseley may have started the season as part time, there may be others as well, but both these clubs turned full time during the season - with on the face of it at least, disastrous consequences.

The sheer number of clubs who are struggling financially at this level is getting out of control and something must surely be done. It’s all very well “modelling” your non league club like a Football League one, but when the income simply isn’t there it puts the very existence of the football club in jeopardy.

Time for a rethink in my opinion .....


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Post by Yorkieandy » 15 Feb 2018, 12:20

Regionalise the NL for a start. Cut down on travel substantially and virtually eliminate the requirement to stay over in hotels.
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Post by Plainmoor78 » 15 Feb 2018, 12:41

Yorkieandy wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 12:20
Regionalise the NL for a start. Cut down on travel substantially and virtually eliminate the requirement to stay over in hotels.
Alas that won't happen. The whole point of the alliance/conference/national league was to have a single division and thus single champion who could apply for election to the football league without facing competition from other non-league teams.
A return to regionalisation of non-league immediately below the football league would simply mean the national league having to vote themselves out of existence, and I can't see the blazers doing that.
But I agree with you that the whole shebang is unravelling.

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Post by MellowYellow » 15 Feb 2018, 12:48

CP Gull wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 11:13

Time for a rethink in my opinion .....
Particularly a rethink on the biggest cost to any club - wages! not just players, although their wages and contracts requires remodelling. Merse eludes to this with the Boreham Wood module.

And what of the wage costs associated with a clubs Director of Football/General Manager/Recruitment Manager etc. Are these roles an absolute necessity at this level. What also the cost of outsourcing e.g. Ground Security/Stewards etc. At the Maidenhead match the ground was unsegregated, so you could view the game at any part of the ground. Yes, there were some stewards as they have to follow the FA Safeguarding Policies, but crowd trouble is unheard of at the ground.

Its time non-league club starting acting like non-league clubs. The key component of any non-league club is knowing their income
and expenditure and cutting their cloth accordingly to ensure that the club is run sustainably.
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Post by tomogull » 15 Feb 2018, 13:31

nickbrod wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 17:39
Could Maidstone be a contender? Their last league win was on November 11th, a 1-0 win over .....Torquay.
On Madgull's survival thread, I posted that Maidenhead could be a contender for relegation. I meant to post Maidstone. Too many maids ...... :D


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Post by westyorkshiregull » 15 Feb 2018, 16:48

What would regionalising the non league scene benefit us. Gates possible be higher on average but you would have lower suppoertted teams in the division because the spread over north and south would be compromised. Fair to say the national north and south have lower attendances on average. Can't see fuel making much difference and possible would need hotels as much. Seems all a bit of give and take so better how it is. Torquay does have fans spread all over the country also

Cost cutting is counter productive in some areas. For me more money should be trickling down from above. Clubs should be obviously sensible also .

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