Current Form in the National League.

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westyorkshiregull
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Current Form in the National League.

Post by westyorkshiregull » 13 Feb 2018, 15:44

I've always said I don't want to rely and would take no happiness from surviving through another clubs hardship. I wouldn't choose it that way and wouldn't celebrate it either. Agree with merse that to a extent the club's should make themselves solvent to ensure this doesn't matter. I've not read to much into pools situation but I'm assuming it's not a Boston united situation which if it was that then it would be different. I find it a difficult one , 10 points deduction I agree with but I would struggle to feel any kind of satisfaction if club shut down and we survived. Have they spent fortunes on the hope of promotion or just bad business decisions ??


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Post by merse btpir » 13 Feb 2018, 16:46

westyorkshiregull wrote:
13 Feb 2018, 15:44
Agree with merse that to a extent the club's should make themselves solvent to ensure this doesn't matter.
It's not only Hartlepool; Dagenham have overspent on a £1.3 million budget in 12 months which equates to over £100,000.00 a month!* Someone has to be accountable for this massive balls up. They had to fill the overspending hole wannabee owner GlennTamplin (who was ostracised and eventually bought Billericay Town) got them into as well the assumption of the money he was going to shovel in.

Some of it was spent on capital projects such as the club house but that hasn't seen anyting remarkable as regards increased turnover to justify that outlay and that has to be because it has not been managed in a manner commensurate with capital outlay.

In reality what Dagenham have done is committed to capital expenditure on the basis of investment promised but not actually delivered and now they're in the shit.......it's a road far too many clubs go down.

* In the days of Thea Bristow, United were overspending to the tune of £2,000 a DAY under the managing directorship of Bill Phillips and that was because (for all the hype about them) the Alex Rowe ~ & after him Simon Baker ~ board failed to put in place any sustainable business plan that would support the club apart from all the benevolence they relied upon from the Bristow family.

They were silly enough to go down that road and the Bristows were stupid enough to allow them to!


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Post by merse btpir » 13 Feb 2018, 17:10

westyorkshiregull wrote:
13 Feb 2018, 15:44
I've always said I don't want to rely and would take no happiness from surviving through another clubs hardship. I wouldn't choose it that way and wouldn't celebrate it either.
As the on-line football magazine twohundred percent told us recently;
First of all, we have to get through the question of what, exactly, constitutes “Hartlepool United.” On the one hand, it’s a football team with players and staff who do a job for money, money that may not be paid when it next falls due on the twenty-fifth of this month. The sum required to ensure that the club’s obligations are met is reported to be £200,000. Then, of course, there is a thicket of limited companies connected to the club. There’s Hartlepool United Football Club Ltd., the company which holds the right to field a team in the National League every week. Then there’s HUFC Holdings Ltd., the company that bought Hartlepool United FC for a nominal sum at the end of last season. On top of that, there’s Sage Investments Ltd., the company that owns HUFC Ltd., which withdrew future funding from the club in December, the decision which has led to the situation in which we find ourselves today.

Then, however, there is something altogether more nebulous than the registers of Companies House or the eleven herberts who keep losing football matches every week. There is also Hartlepool United, the institution. The football club which has represented the town of Hartlepool since 1908. This version of Hartlepool United is that with which most supporters are the most familiar. It’s the supporters, the blue and white striped shirts, the badge and Victoria Park. It’s the fact that we kind of know roughly where we could find on a map, because they were a Football League club. It is because every club has a story like this that this interpretation of Hartlepool United is that which most supporters likely want to help. Few will feel much sympathy for Sage Investments should the very worst befall the club. They made a business decision – commonly agreed to involve a property development linked to the club – which has not turned out the way those concerned presumably expected. If the phrase “Fourteen days left to save Hartlepool United” is repurposed as “Fourteen days left to pay the basic business overheads of one of Sage Investments’ business concerns”, the idea of emptying coins into a bucket outside Victoria Park before their next home match somehow starts to feel like a little less appealing.

In order to understand the future of the club and what may best be done to help it, we should perhaps attempt to look into the future a little. Supporters of both Hartlepool United and other clubs have already performed some sterling work in raising money for the club, but let’s not presume that on the twenty-fifth of January the money is definitely going to be there to pay the wages or the bills. So, let’s imagine that they don’t raise it. Well, the one thing that we know for certain is that the club will not disappear on that day. Once players start to go unpaid, the contract between them and the club may be considered broken and they would be free to leave to go elsewhere. It’s not a certainty that this would happen to any significant extent, of course. Some may stay out of a sense of loyalty, others in the hope that the situation will resolve itself and that they won’t have to potentially undergo a period without work or having to uproot and relocate, others out of the belief that they may not get a better deal elsewhere and that staying at Victoria Park will be the best calculated risk of those available. Some may leave, others will stay. Attracting new players to replace those that do leave may prove to be a huge challenge, for sure.

An inability to pay outgoings as and when they fall due has a legal name. Insolvency. There has been much talk of the pros and cons of entering into adminstration in football circles for some time, but what does this mean in practice and what would the effect be on the club? Entering into administration is an admission of insolvency. The club appoints an Insolvency Practitioner (IP – also known as administrator) to run its affairs, and the IP’s job is to act to ensure that creditors’ interests are maximised while – hopefully – helping the company to recover, with the intention of selling it on as a going concern. The preferred method of doing this is a Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA). A CVA is an arrangement by which a company’s creditors agreed to accept a reduced amount which may be paid as a lump sum or over a period of time. The decision on whether to agree a CVA proposal is taken at a creditors’ meeting at which those owed money get votes by a proportion of what they are owed. So, if one creditor is owed 75% of the total debt, they get 75% of the total vote. If the vote is carried, the CVA is adopted and there is no recourse for other creditors unless the IP themself has got something wrong procedurally. CVA proposals are made with a “pence in the pound” offer, and these offers can be exceptionally low. This isn’t always necessarily a terrible thing – in the summer of 2013, for example, creditors – mostly the former owner of the club – of Dunfermline Athletic accepted a CVA offer of zero pence in the pound in order to save the club and pass it into Supporters Trust ownership, and there have been others as well.

The matter of football clubs entering into administration is complex and has both risks and benefits for a club. On the risk side, overall responsibility for running the club passes to the IP, and their first responsibility is to creditors rather than players, directors or supporters. The IP could propose to liquidate the club and sell all of its assets should they choose to. CVAs also only apply to unsecured creditors as well, so those with debts secured against assets of the club – most commonly the ground itself – have to be dealt with separately. There are also further complications exclusive to football. It is standard procedure for governing bodies to demand that “football creditors” are paid in full, a rule put in place to prevent clubs racking up debt in purchasing other clubs’ players and then only paying them a small fraction of this after entering into administration. It’s a controversial rule, and one that has been challenged in court on several occasions by HMRC, but it still exists. Further information on the FA’s standardised rules regarding insolvency events at clubs may be found here, under Section 14. And on top of that, of course, a mandatory ten point deduction which would throw the club deep into a relegation battle at a time when it – both literally and metaphorically – cannot afford to be in one.

There are, however, also benefits to entering into administration. The most obvious is the most pressing. Entering into administration offers automatic security from being petitioned at court over outstanding debts. This applies right up to the last minute, and is pretty much essential with HMRC in the voracious mood that they’ve been in over the last few years. In addition to this, adminstration grants breathing space. The IP could, if they wished, close the club down and liquidate its few assets on the day that they take control of it, but this is highly unlikely in the case of Hartlepool United, a club for which there are few upsides beyond punishment for closing it – and whether those that have got the club into this position would even be punished by it might be considered a moot point by many – while there are benefits to rescuing it as a business if it can be appropriately restructured. A fresh start, with all creditors happy and a feeling that the club is back on an even keel, benefits everybody, ultimately.


But is it worth paying into these Just Giving pages or not, though? Well, that’s a matter of personal preference, though the club should issue a statement confirming that all money collected will be spent on wages and covering the club’s other priority creditors in order to assuage fears of supporters that money given to it will end up paying, say, director loans first. The Hartlepool United Supporters Trust have issued a request to the club to do precisely this today. If the club is to enter into administration, let it happen and pour money into the possibility of the Trust being able to buy a significant shareholding in the club with offers to creditors. The Trust does not wish for the club to enter into administration, and it is completely understandable that they should feel that way. If a solution can be found that doesn’t require it, then it should be pursued because entering into administration only ever benefits a tiny number of those affected by it. The club, meanwhile, finally issued a statement of its own regarding the events of the last few days on Thursday evening, but it didn’t address this subject in any way whatsoever:
The current financial position of the Club is challenging, and we whole-heartedly appreciate the way not only our own fans but fans from other clubs have rallied together to help Hartlepool United Football Club at this time.

Everyone at the Club has worked tirelessly to find a new owner in recent months and this hard work will continue. The current owner has provided significant funding to the Club but unfortunately a change of ownership is required. We need as many genuine people as possible to join together to buy the Club but if a consortium or a buyer cannot be found in the near future, administration is a very real prospect.
In the meantime, thank you once again to all of you who have shown your true heart, your efforts have not gone unnoticed or unappreciated by the Club.

But where does all of this leave Hartlepool United? As of now, the club still hasn’t opened its books for the Trust to see, so why, exactly, anybody should be giving them any money whatsoever is very much open to question. At the time of writing, Hartlepool United’s players and staff are paid up to date, and we shall see what happens on the twenty-fifth of January. But the ultimate fact of the matter remains that it should be the club’s responsibility to pay its players and staff, and that it shouldn’t even need to be down to supporters, Hartlepool supporters or the supporters of other clubs to be digging the club out of this hole. If Sage Investments’ due diligence on the business that they only purchased last year wasn’t fit for purpose, that ultimately is ~ and should be ~ their loss.


........and that basically is the nub of the matter; it is not the remit nor indeed the legal obligation of any supporters' trust to throw good money (that of their members) after bad (that of the negligent in their due diligence owners) but rather to organise and prepare for the day when their only option is to fund and organise a club on their own behalf and that applies just as much at Torquay United as it does at Hartlepool.

If Clarke Osborne comes to the conclusion that he is throwing his good money after bad; then for sure he will cease funding the football club just as Sage have at Hartlepool and Meadow Partners have at Dulwich Hamlet. When property speculators/developers realise they will not get what they want they pull the plug; make no mistake about it!
Last edited by merse btpir on 13 Feb 2018, 17:15, edited 1 time in total.


westyorkshiregull
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Post by westyorkshiregull » 13 Feb 2018, 17:11

Grim reading merse. Can't get my head around 2000 a day overspending and what on earth was that spent on. Must of had the queens butler in the board room.

It's a sad state of affairs all the way around

Living the dream one minute and ugly demise the next. I don't want to drag up the past as it's make the reality and future even worse but makes you realise just how Mike bateson could combine running a business while still being a supporter. Not many of them left around these days. When I say running a business I mean not pumping endless amounts of money in , I mean making things balance and where possible splashing the cash occasionly. Doubt we will see a 100000 grand signing for a long time to come.


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Post by westyorkshiregull » 13 Feb 2018, 17:16

I'll never forget the quote when the club was for sale ~ a owner could buy the club and work within and draw a mosest sum of 35000 a year

That was mike bateson all over , didn't merse once say he was the only the chairman who turned his hot water off when he went bed.


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Post by Neal » 13 Feb 2018, 17:37

"If Clarke Osborne comes to the conclusion that he is throwing his good money after bad; then for sure he will cease funding the football club just as Sage have at Hartlepool and Meadow Partners have at Dulwich Hamlet. When property speculators/developers realise they will not get what they want they pull the plug; make no mistake about it!"

Yep that's about right
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Post by merse btpir » 13 Feb 2018, 20:10

There is an epidemic of financial difficulty going on at this level of football at the moment, and the most likely body to be effect an arrestment of this trend is the National League itself. In the meantime, Dagenham & Redbridge, it would appear, needs considerable financial restructuring because regardless of whatever protests have been going on elsewhere, the grim truth of the matter is that the sort of losses that the club has been sustaining over this period of time simply cannot continue. Something has to give. Perhaps Dagenham & Redbridge will be lucky enough to find another investor or group of investors who are prepared to fund the club’s huge financial losses. Perhaps they won’t. Either way, something needs to change, whether that’s in the National League’s financial governance or in the structuring of how this club ~ and others ~ manage their financial affairs.


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Post by westyorkshiregull » 13 Feb 2018, 20:37

Not sure where to put this thread but barrow are winning half time. Be a blow if this stays as it is.


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Post by Burnhamgull » 13 Feb 2018, 21:08

It would be a blow but it also might just bring a few people back down to earth and realise that despite a slight upturn in form, we are far from safe and still very very deep in trouble.

Let's all keep a level head when winning and not get too carried away.
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Post by westyorkshiregull » 13 Feb 2018, 21:20

1-1 now...really not much joy in having to rely on other teams but that's where we are at. Guess that's football

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Post by MellowYellow » 14 Feb 2018, 14:44

So Guiseley have sacked Paul Cox- where do they expect to find a better replacement?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43058647
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Post by tomogull » 14 Feb 2018, 17:05

MellowYellow wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 14:44
So Guiseley have sacked Paul Cox- where do they expect to find a better replacement?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43058647
Agree. A ridiculous decision. Good news for us, though. We can now expect Guiseley to be relegated along with Chester and probably Barrow. We just have to make sure we're not the fourth victim. I'm beginning to clutch at Portugal's straws ..... :whistle:


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Post by nickbrod » 14 Feb 2018, 17:39

Could Maidstone be a contender? Their last league win was on November 11th, a 1-0 win over .....Torquay.

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Post by MellowYellow » 14 Feb 2018, 17:44

tomogull wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 17:05
MellowYellow wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 14:44
So Guiseley have sacked Paul Cox- where do they expect to find a better replacement?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43058647
Agree. A ridiculous decision. Good news for us, though. We can now expect Guiseley to be relegated along with Chester and probably Barrow. We just have to make sure we're not the fourth victim. I'm beginning to clutch at Portugal's straws ..... :whistle:
I think most of us would have taken Paul Cox before Owers arrival yet the irony is that both his previous clubs, Barrow and Guiseley are deep in the relegation mix.
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Post by Dazza » 14 Feb 2018, 18:19

There is always a risk taking on a club like Guiseley. Despite all their ambitious they clearly have been punching above their weight. Crowd size still equals playing budget in some locations.

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