Torquay United Fans Forum

[quote="ferrarilover"]I think the answer, Dave, is that simply won't happen. It's possible to run a club to a Conference budget. How do I know? Because 24 clubs have managed it every year for more than a century now. It won't suddenly become impossible just because we're Torquay United. The only way it'll happen is if no one turns up. If that happens, well, so be it. If there's no call for a club in Torquay, then the remaining couple of hundred fans will have to go to Plymouth or Exeter or somewhere else, or just give up watching live football altogether.

Matt.[/quote]

I think that is a good point. Whilst I and many others worry about the shortfall in funding - we need to remember that none of the other clubs we will be playing get it either and in fact for the first two years we will get something that our opponents will not, in terms of parachute payments.

So, in essence, there is little to excuse poor performances - but then again it shouldn't have been so bad this year.

By us accepting that we are now going to be a shit Conference club, I suppose we are letting those who run the club off the hook when our fears turn out to be true. People often say the job of supporters is to 'support' but actually, it is also to hold those running the club to account.

I think the answer, Dave, is that simply won't happen. It's possible to run a club to a Conference budget. How do I know? Because 24 clubs have managed it every year for more than a century now. It won't suddenly become impossible just because we're Torquay United. The only way it'll happen is if no one turns up. If that happens, well, so be it. If there's no call for a club in Torquay, then the remaining couple of hundred fans will have to go to Plymouth or Exeter or somewhere else, or just give up watching live football altogether.

Matt.

Thanks for posting that info Matt, and I'm sure it might put some minds at rest. However when you say the club will lose £250-300k, that's year1, that will drop further year 2, what your saying is actually a very short term fix, and I see a flaw. Something I figured out all on my own (hard to believe I know) is the true and final cost of relegation will possibly not be know until year 3.

See, if we don't get promotion back to the league with in the first 2 years, and the club has put up all the prices it can conceivably get away with, all cost savings have been exhausted, and the black hole hole in the budget has become to wide for Thea to plug. What then ?

If promotion back to the league in the first 2 years doesn't happen, it's only then that the true and final cost of relegation will come home to roost. Our football league status was precious and vital for the long term future of the club, it had to be the number 1 priority, it seriously would have been worth a few financial gambles to try to hold on to our football league status, of course there are no guarantees, like a set of waterproof pitch covers that could have saved the original date with Northampton, before they appointed Wilder and at their lowest ebb, and covering the wages of Marquis or a like player, that could have helped turn all those 1.0 defeats into draws, even the odd win.

Yes all would have been a gamble and the club could have lost, but the stakes were so high, not being over dramatic here, but we were playing for the long term future of the youth set up and club, the youth set will retain it's funding for 1 year, what happens after that and beyond, will the club be able to gain charitable status for it, or will the parents be faced with not only buying the kits as they do now, but paying a monthly training fee to cover academy costs, if that were to happen a lot of the kids would be withdrawn, as they could go to a local club, have a full league programme, cup competitions, summer tournaments, end of season presentation with trophies, all the things they don't get in the academy, for a lot less money.

I really hope our club returns to the league and fast, but I have realized it's going to be a lot harder job this time, and lot harder that some think.

The club will lose £250-300,000 in the first year. Some of that will be clawed back by increased prices elsewhere, some by cost savings and the shortfall between the two (I'm guessing now, I know nothing more than you [dear reader] at this stage) will come from Thea (apologies to Alex and others if, by mentioning Thea alone, I'm doing them a disservice).

It's a lot of money, but I'd suggest that we won't let it affect the administration of the club unduly. I am less worried than many of you, it seems. Perhaps, when I've had a chance to quiz people who know better than me (yeah yeah, it's a long list), I'll have joined the sensible members in a pit of depression =D

Matt.

The list Gulli reproduced (not his fault) is nonsense. You'll have to take my word for it (which I appreciate that some will simply refuse to do).

Matt.

Yes, I know this is exactly the sort of post I usually hate, and for the hipocracy, I can but apologise and beg forgiveness.

Great post forever, it is completely spot on. I find the blase nature some fans have accepted relegation with difficult to understand. We'll be in a different universe in terms of finance next year - particularly if you consider what the fixture list would have been in league 2 again as you've mentioned.

:goodpost:

Ok Alpine Joe, maybe using the word "guts" was incorrect, but I do read that statment differently to you, I see it as aboard apologising to it's fans, accepting some responsibly, and at least trying to explain what has gone wrong for them, you read a different way that's fair enough.

Everyone in every walk of life makes mistakes, I have never been one to hang anyone for a mistake , but unless anyone our board included has the ability to, accept they've made mistakes, or have the ability to identify what those mistakes are, then they'll never learn from them, or be able to fix the mistakes.

Thanks Gulliball for re-posted that information on wage budgets, that's the thing that is frustrating, yes it appears that we do have a lower end league 2 budget , but 16th equal with Rochdale automatic promotion and Burton play-off's, there are 6 club with budgets some far less than our own, all safe.

Some fans seem more than happy to blindly accept our fate and happily clap there way of to the conference, fine, their entitled to do that and respect them for doing so, I, on the other hand am not happy to do that, do I want to know why ? how this happened, yes, damn right I do. This we're a tiny club with no money doesn't wash with me any more, as a club earlier in the season, we seemed quite happy jerking ourselves off over the 200k spent on Seale Hayne, and we had a wage budget 16th equal in the league, greater by some way, than others club who have stayed up.

This "we'll be back" strap line, sorry, hot air, bluster and nonsense, there needs to be a large dose of reality here. The club are about to lose a large chuck of it's income, and it now looks like there will be no South West derbies next season, sorry with due respect to them FGR aren't going to bring 1450 fans down to Plainmoor, if we're to avoid going down the same road as Hereford and many other former league clubs, the club is going to have, to slash it's wage budget, and I mean slash it to keep the club on a sound financial footing, what kind of team does anyone actually think we're going to have, if CH can have fighting for promotion next season, he indeed will have gained football manager genius status.

When we start banding around meaningless statements like "we'll be back" What does it actually mean 2017-18-19, 2025 even, what ? All I want as a fan, over the next few weeks, is some kind of statement from the club as to went they think went wrong, and what they intend to do, or maybe more importantly what they can do, to get the club we all support back into the league.

You make some fair points (Matt) especially in relation to club size not equating to success. However I do think there are strong indicators and numerous examples to suggest we may not fare as well as some people think that's all. For example I'm not really sure what we've got going for us that the likes of Aldershot and Hereford haven't. We don't yet know the full implications and costs of relegation added to the losses made over the last few years - but what we do know is the club will be starting on a completely different footing to the last time we were at that level. I'm not saying the club can't make a go of it in time, but I'm sure the initial aim will be stabilisation. If I had to wager whether I thought it would be a quick stay or that we are going to be there for the duration I'm afraid I'd choose the latter as to me that's what the evidence points towards.

Forevertufc is of course quite entitled to fully applaud the Shrewsbury directors on the action they have taken. But while we're not particularly interested in events at Shrewsbury, I'd ask others to consider how much 'guts' it actually takes to authorise the release of a statement that in essence says 'Stop blaming us for relegation, the blame lies elsewhere'

They apologise for what others have done badly (i.e the players) in terms of results and performances. There is a vague overall apology for the 'season', but nowhere will you find a specific mention of what the Board did wrong other than maybe they should have asked a few more questions as to why some signings fell through, while of course explaining fully that this was in no way due to a lack of funds provided by the Board, and quoting 'protocol tables' to prove they've been more than generous over recent seasons.

Naturally we learn that they too were uncomfortable with the high number of loan signings the manager was bringing in, while further covering themselves by pleading that this was never a cheap option, that there were 'always funds available for the right player' and they almost go as far as to use a term that we're now familiar with in intimating that they had provided a 'promotion budget', or in their words a competitive budget suited to a club with aspirations of the play-offs.

Personally I didn't view the statement as demonstrating guts, but instead as a gutless attempt to pass the buck and cover their own backsides.
Corporate spin put out by the STFC media man to protect his bosses, and worded so perfectly that if you asked the average Shrewsbury fan in a fortnights time just what it actually was that the Directors had apologised for, I doubt they'd have a clue.

[quote="taunton_gull"]

I am being realistic about the future, that's all. I'd suggest anyone who studies the facts would come to the same conclusion. Wrexham, Lincoln and Grimsby - just three clubs from the top of my head with bigger infrastructures than ourselves who are still down there albeit Grimsby have made it to the playoffs this season. What exactly makes you think we are in a better position to make a swift return? That's without mentioning Stockport, Hereford, Darlington, Aldershot or Chester - the latter folded and reformed. Some have fared better than others but I'd argue none of those mentioned or others I could think of are smaller than Torquay. You simply have to accept the fact that there isn't a lottery winner on the horizon to pick up the pieces as there was last time. The financial news from the club over the last few years is very worrying, which is why as others have pointed out it will be an achievement to stabilise rather than risk slipping further down the pyramid. I will support the club next season as I always have but I do so with an awareness of the lessons of history in relation to other clubs.

Far from having a self-defeating attitude gullscorer I'm choosing not to bury my head in the sand...[/quote]

I'm afraid what you're doing is assigning merit where it is undue.

Ranking clubs by "size" is irrelevant and daft. Portsmouth are a "bigger" club than Fulham.
FC United of Manchester are a "bigger" club than Accrington Stanley. Size is irrelevant, completely irrelevant. Trying to pick the finishing positions of football teams in a division based on "size" is a bit like trying to pick the winner of the Grand National by the colour of the jockey's underpants; the two things simply are not connected.

The manner in which we have been relegated this year marks us out as already being a side too good for the Conference. Even if we have exactly the same squad for next year, playing against Conference sides, those eight 1-0 losses become 0-0 draws and we stay up comfortably.

I haven't seen us get outplayed by any side since CH took over (there might be one, but I couldn't say which). We've lacked one thing, a striker. As the club is now, we're a striker light of being a mid-table L2 side with one eye on the playoffs.

It'll take many elements coming together (no different from any other club in any other division in any other season), but there's absolutely nothing stopping us from coming straight back up next year, least of all some myth that crowd sizes or an FA Cup semi-final appearance in 1899 (or any other factor for which one may wish to account when considering relative "size") has any bearing whatsoever.

Matt.

[quote="DevonYellow"]Would be interesting to see the wage protocol tables for league 2 for this season and last season.[/quote]

Someone on another forum worked this out by going around every teams published accounts and fans forums.

1. Fleetwood Town £2.1m
2. Chesterfield £1.5m
= Southend United £1.5m
= Bristol Rovers £1.5m
5. Mansfield Town £1.4m
= Plymouth Argyle £1.4m
= Newport County £1.4m
8. Hartlepool United £1.3m
= Oxford United £1.3m
= Northampton Town £1.3m
= Portsmouth £1.3m*
= Scunthorpe United £1.3m
= Wycombe Wanderers £1.3m
14. York City £1.25m
15. Cheltenham Town £1.2m
16. Burton Albion £1.1m
= Rochdale £1.1m
[b]= Torquay United £1.1m[/b]
19. AFC Wimbledon £1.07m
20. Bury £900,000+
21. Dagenham and Redbridge £800,000
= Exeter City £800,000
= Morecambe £800,000
24. Accrington Stanley £500,000

Would suggest that we have a lower end budget, but more than enough to compete at this level. Especially given the sides we are level with are likely to go up this year.

To be fair to Chris Hargreaves, he HAS managed to turn things around on the field, but unfortunately slightly too late.

I think he will do his best to get a good team together for next season, although he will have to overcome the hurdle facing all Torquay managers of actually persuading people to come to Devon. The size of the budget isn't everything - Forest Green had the biggest in the Conference this season and did absolutely squat with it. Meanwhile, part time sides like Braintree and Alfreton did well.

But next year's conference will be VERY competitive and we would be naive to expect to bounce back in one season, even though we'd all like to.

[quote="Gullscorer"]You're not being negative about relegation, you're being negative about the future. That's a self-defeating attitude.. :([/quote]

I am being realistic about the future, that's all. I'd suggest anyone who studies the facts would come to the same conclusion. Wrexham, Lincoln and Grimsby - just three clubs from the top of my head with bigger infrastructures than ourselves who are still down there albeit Grimsby have made it to the playoffs this season. What exactly makes you think we are in a better position to make a swift return? That's without mentioning Stockport, Hereford, Darlington, Aldershot or Chester - the latter folded and reformed. Some have fared better than others but I'd argue none of those mentioned or others I could think of are smaller than Torquay. You simply have to accept the fact that there isn't a lottery winner on the horizon to pick up the pieces as there was last time. The financial news from the club over the last few years is very worrying, which is why as others have pointed out it will be an achievement to stabilise rather than risk slipping further down the pyramid. I will support the club next season as I always have but I do so with an awareness of the lessons of history in relation to other clubs.

Far from having a self-defeating attitude gullscorer I'm choosing not to bury my head in the sand...

Would be interesting to see the wage protocol tables for league 2 for this season and last season.