Torquay United Fans Forum

[quote=Yorkieandy post_id=238187 time=1553015426 user_id=23508]
Who are 'the bookies and his mates' ?
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Dave Phillips & his keyboard w@nk3r fearing cronies, Steve Breed ( a real good egg ) can be excluded as he was unceremoniously dumped after a time but he was the only one who, at the time, knew what was to come & warned of appointing another so called legend into the managers seat.

Who are 'the bookies and his mates' ?

[quote=Teigngull post_id=238181 time=1553008383 user_id=24223]
Yes Exeter are 'the model club's but let's not forget where they were before the 2 Man U games !
And where would we be if we could've beaten Crawley that fateful day ?
A roll reversal more than likely, we were one f.a cup win away from salvation.
As for the fan ownership, I get what you mean but there's no getting away from the fact the bookie & his mates found it tough, they were screwed over by a few & some of them realised before it was too late & pulled out.
Whilst it was an admiral thing to do by trying to save the club from administration, are we any worse off now ?
I don't think so. Fan ownership is fine if you have the backing in numbers, I don't think we have, I think it's a non starter for TUFC & CO knows it.
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'A roll reversal' - what's with the gymnastics?

The 'admiral thing' may have worked if they had shown the Nelson touch but it was more like turning a blind eye.

However, your last sentence is pretty accurate. Last season I was pilloried (as usual) for suggesting that fans would prefer to follow a team succeeding in a lower division rather than struggling at a higher level, yet the attendances this season and the general comments on the forum do bear this out. Unfortunately, either way, TUFC is unlikely to be able to generate sufficient income from its (relatively small) fanbase to satisfy the aspirations of those fans, so the club is therefore always likely to be at the mercy of the benevolence and competence of its owner. Whilst an occasional windfall from a big cup-tie is welcome, it can only be a short term fix which staves off the routine financial struggle for a while. I am sure that you are capable of drawing your own conclusions regarding the benevolence and competence of the current owner (and his predecessors) but there is no real evidence that a fan owned TUFC would be any more stable, successful or secure.

[quote=Teigngull post_id=238181 time=1553008383 user_id=24223]

And where would we be if we could've beaten Crawley that fateful day ?
A roll reversal more than likely, we were one f.a cup win away from salvation.

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We would be in the same place we are now. Remember at the time we were still being bank rolled by the Bristows and their money was essentially wasted because no one was looking at investing in future sustainability. There is nothing to suggest the Man Utd money wouldn't have been flushed down the toilet as well.
Yes Exeter got lucky with their cup ties but they took the opportunity to invest wisely. These type of opportunities come along once in a generation, whether luck in the cup or benevolent investors. We blew our chance, don't expect to get a second bite of the cherry.

Also, there is a big difference between 'fan ownership' and a fan or group of fans owning the club. The bookie and his mates were fans who bought the club, when it came to working with the TUST and potentially looking towards 'fan ownership' they had no interest.

Yes Exeter are 'the model club's but let's not forget where they were before the 2 Man U games !
And where would we be if we could've beaten Crawley that fateful day ?
A roll reversal more than likely, we were one f.a cup win away from salvation.
As for the fan ownership, I get what you mean but there's no getting away from the fact the bookie & his mates found it tough, they were screwed over by a few & some of them realised before it was too late & pulled out.
Whilst it was an admiral thing to do by trying to save the club from administration, are we any worse off now ?
I don't think so. Fan ownership is fine if you have the backing in numbers, I don't think we have, I think it's a non starter for TUFC & CO knows it.

Exeter are perhaps THE model that all lower league clubs need to follow. Yes it's not perfect and i'm sure there are people at the club earning a pretty penny and having a little bit too much power and influence than they should but ultimately they are re-investing sensibly and slowly and gradually creating a self sustainable and extremely well run club on and off the field.

Yes you could argue that this is perhaps at the expense of success on the field but so long as fans accept that this is the trade off for having a stable and well run club then it works. Having said that, Exeter have missed out on promotion the last few seasons at the final hurdle and are in the play off hunt again this season so hardly floundering.

PhilGull is 100% accurate with his post.

It's a fine balance between a club having ambition and satisfying the ambition of it's fans and a club guaranteeing league football and it's future. Exeter are the example.

Also the manner in which they engage the fanbase is extremely impressive as opposed to Torquay past and present. I don't think having an owner who doesn't give a flying f**k about football let alone Torquay United helps in this regard either.

I would argue that the Exeter model of investing their money in the clubs infrastructure is the correct one. They could have spent it all on players and coaches and they may have had a few years 'success' (although as a gazillion examples all around the world show, money does not always equal success in football) but at the end of it when it all eventually fell apart they would have nothing. Investing as they have increases their chances of developing more talent that can be sold for big money and most importantly it goes someway to guarantee the future of the club. If the original mob that took over from Bateson in 2007 had spent Bristow's millions more wisely we may not be where we are now. At the very least we may not have matches postponed all the time and actually have a proper, usable 365 days a year training facility.

Teigngull I think you are stretching credulity by suggesting that our bookie and his mates could be considered fan ownership. I believe they saw an opportunity and were in it for what they could get, did they pay themselves a salary while they were in ownership, I am sure they did, did they have any financial acumen, no they did not. Did they have any long term plans for United, judging by their combined ages no they did not. I am not against fan ownership but I have yet to see a successful model in existence anywhere in England. it may work as far as saving a club from folding. But as a long term model they just do not work. Have any risen threw the leagues and stayed there. Look at Exeter as an example of fan ownership, they still cannot get out of league two and they have received millions in transfer sales alone over the last three seasons. Yes they may have a training academy and pitches that are the envy of many teams above them, but in the same way as Bristows bench sucked any money we had out of the club, facilities do not win you league matches, and that is the only basis for which success can be based. The fans at Exeter placed Alan TAGG in charge on a very large salary but he will not let any manager earn more than him. As much as it seems attractive to any of our more socialist minded members you cannot have decisions made by never ending committee, You need a strong individual who is not worried about upsetting the sensibilities of fans and more so when it that individuals money ,while they sounds alarmingly like our current owner I assure you it was not my intention.

We've had ' fan ownership ' to a certain degree ( the bookie & his mates ), & look how tough they found it.

[quote=wivelgull post_id=238156 time=1552905639 user_id=119]
Scarborough lost at home AGAIN on Saturday, after which defeat their manager was sacked. Without a doubt they are the worst team I have seen this season, beating them 2-0 at home on New Year's Day (Att: 1318). They are now after our manager, it seems, though I doubt they'll be successful. Deeply hated by everyone, Scarborough FC are on the decline!!
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It's no secret in evo stik north circles that Scarborough have been really poor since the turn of the year leaving them a job on just to get the final play off spot where automatic looked nailed on pre New Year. It's been such a disappointment and ex manager Steve Kittrick has been questioned repeatedly and now he's paid the price.

I didn't go to the Whitby game but by all accounts it was a really embarrassing performance by the seadogs. Not good for a fierce local derby. I watched Scarborough away at Matlock a few weeks back in what was one of the worst games i've ever seen (0-0) at any level. I do worry that fans are getting ideas above their station too quickly however as this is first season in evo stik north after promotion last term and it's not as simple as just steamrollering all before you especially at a higher level.

I would have given Kittrick another season. It is what it is. :lol: (Wivel might get that :~D ).

I think your assumption that Scarborough are deeply hated by everyone is way off the mark though Wivel. Perhaps a few miles up the A171 yes but they've always been well received by most clubs and fans and i'm sure fans of other clubs accept that an ex league club based in a large town is likely to have a bigger potential fanbase than the likes of Matlock and Buxton. It is what it is. :na:

As for the decline? More fans than Morecambe. More fans than just about every other club at that level bar South Shields. A new stadium. A new stand approved and being constructed. A functioning website and second to none commercial operations. Productive partnership with local council and businesses. On the verge of NLN despite only being formed 10 years ago through nothing more than sheer determination, hard work, dedication, fan engagement and efficient management on and off the field. Wow. That's some decline.

It's the likes of Whitby who will continue to spend their lives in the lower reaches of non league because they don't know how to achieve what Scarborough have.

Anyway, that's just a reply to Wivel. Obviously this isn't a Scarborough forum so apologies. Skip if offended. :Oops:

[quote=standupsitdown post_id=238155 time=1552902461 user_id=19272]
A phoenix club is far from ideal. It is a last resort if the club goes into liquidation. Hopefully when Osborne decides to go he will be willing to sell for much less than he's put into the club and we can find an owner (or fan ownership) that wants to own & run Torquay United for football reasons. It is however right to consider all possibilities and if the club is liquidated an AFC may be the only way to keep Torquay United (AFC) alive.
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Yes agree. A phoenix club should now be considered an option only if the current club go under. As has been correctly pointed out to me by quite a few posters over the years which i disagreed with, an 'AFC Torquay' cannot be viable whilst there is still a fully operational TUFC. I disagreed then but fully agree now.

One only has to look at AFC Mansfield who were formed in 2012 as a break off protest club to rebel against then then MTFC who were being run into the ground by the then owners. Much like Blackpool, the owners eventually left the club and it is now owned by multi millionaire One Call Insurance founder John Radford, a local lad and Mansfield fan who has now invested heavily and turned the club around.

Meanwhile AFC Mansfield flounder in the Northern Premier League Div 1 East and some founding fans have defected back across to MTFC now they are doing well for themselves. This serves as an example, as does FC United of Manchester as to why forming a breakaway club whilst the club they are breaking away from is still in operation is not viable. I see that now but it took a long, long time. =D

Also football clubs are in a much better position as fan owned clubs if they are still in their current guise and simply just get taken over by fans. Exeter for example have gone from strength to strength and whilst that model has it's flaws, it's the best option available if a club wishes to be competitive without being overly ambitious, retain league status and give fans a voice.

Fan owned clubs that start from scratch have an altogether more difficult task ahead and for these clubs i believe most won't ever make it to the EFL without a sugar daddy. Completely going against why they started out in the first place.

I am of the opinion that if you are a fan of a start up phoenix club then you should expect to remain non league while ever it is fan run. For some fans though this is the only other option to having no club at all.

Scarborough lost at home AGAIN on Saturday, after which defeat their manager was sacked. Without a doubt they are the worst team I have seen this season, beating them 2-0 at home on New Year's Day (Att: 1318). They are now after our manager, it seems, though I doubt they'll be successful. Deeply hated by everyone, Scarborough FC are on the decline!!

A phoenix club is far from ideal. It is a last resort if the club goes into liquidation. Hopefully when Osborne decides to go he will be willing to sell for much less than he's put into the club and we can find an owner (or fan ownership) that wants to own & run Torquay United for football reasons. It is however right to consider all possibilities and if the club is liquidated an AFC may be the only way to keep Torquay United (AFC) alive.

[quote=standupsitdown post_id=238001 time=1552734275 user_id=19272]
I hope it doesn't happen but there are a number of clubs who have reformed and moved up through the leagues. Hereford are probably the most similar to us and their crowds have held up even at very low levels. Obviously it would need council support as they own the freehold but I would hope they'd want to keep the club alive.
We may not have a choice if Osborne wants out or gets the freehold but doesn't build a stadium.
[/quote]

Reforming and becoming a phoenix club is not a panacea for everything sadly. Up until a year or so ago i vehemently believed that it was THE only solution for Torquay United going forward but after spending time watching clubs like Scarborough on a regular basis and getting a real first hand insight into it all i can honestly say that i don't think it would work.

Not only that but it's not much fun either unless you happen to be a real hardened fan of grass, grass, grass, grass roots football. I'm talking a handful of blokes and a dog on odd occasions. I'm sure many on here who go and watch local football in their local areas will attest to this. For a newly formed club to start at the very bottom and for enough if it's fans to stay on board throughout to make it viable is a very, very hard task to achieve.

Scarborough are one of the best supported sides in non league (below NL) and although they have had a handful of promotions since reforming ten years ago and made great strides they are now finding it a little tougher, even with ex league players in their ranks such as ex York and Barnsley attacker Michael Coulson. With these better players comes higher wages and then it becomes a balancing act between progress and frugality.

They currently occupy last spot in the evo stik premier play offs from Gainsborough but it could easily be a second season in there if they fail to get promoted again. I have spoken to fans and read on social media from Scarborough fans questioning how far this model is able to take them which sounds daft considering where they have come from but humans are funny things - when they get more then they seem to want even more than more. If that makes sense?

Not only that it's the sheer amount of work required for everyone involved simply to keep the club functional let alone dynamic and forward thinking. For every club like AFC Wimbledon who have made it into the EFL, there are the likes of Hereford, Darlington and Scarborough who seem to storm through the lower non league divisions with ease initially but then comes the plateau and the bar is reached. Sadly for those clubs some way away from the EFL.

The dream soon becomes harder to reach than expected and in some cases might never be reached for a very long time, if ever.

I was ill informed and uneducated when i spent the last 5 years of my life ranting against Gulls supporters for not wanting to start a phoenix club and becoming something of a pariah but i was wrong and they were right. Osborne clearly isn't the answer but currently the club is stable and not far off back where they want to be and it's just a matter of biding time and digging in. Like the Blackpool fans have done. It's far from perfect and the fans have been treated disgracefully by a succession of owners / club officials but still the show has to go on.

In the hope that one day Osborne will get fed up and the club will find a more suitable owner to help ease the concerns of the fanbase. Osborne won't own the club forever so until that day............

It's far too late for me as i've burned many bridges with the club and a lot of it's fans with passionate and extremist outbursts and we all have to move on with things in life but for those of you that stuck with it and are still doing so - you don't need a phoenix club. Just patience, hope and an iron will. As most of you have in abundance.