Torquay United Fans Forum

exilegull wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 20:17 SNW - we've both been on this website a long time and I'm not looking for a bad mannered dispute with you as we are both LT Torquay United fans with the best interest of the club at heart.

Howeve, you haven't explained, you have made a lot of assertions that from an accounting perspective I can tell you are complete nonsense, hence you cannot answer my specific questions.

I am trying to get you, or anyone else to specifically change their mind about Clarke Osborne, but posts that somehow assume there is some clever wheeze about what he has done so far do not hold water. He has bankrolled the club to the tune of over £5million and at the moment he there is no way for him to recover that money and its likely we would be dead or semi-pro without it.

I have explained and no assertions have been made.
Read into it what you want.
And what I think about Osborne is irrelevant.
Looking at his previous history is worrying enough.

SuperNickyWroe wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 18:23 You asked me to explain it - I have.
If you don't understand or get it - then tough.
Dont ask me to explain it again FFS.

SNW - we've both been on this website a long time and I'm not looking for a bad mannered dispute with you as we are both LT Torquay United fans with the best interest of the club at heart.

Howeve, you haven't explained, you have made a lot of assertions that from an accounting perspective I can tell you are complete nonsense, hence you cannot answer my specific questions.

I am trying to get you, or anyone else to specifically change their mind about Clarke Osborne, but posts that somehow assume there is some clever wheeze about what he has done so far do not hold water. He has bankrolled the club to the tune of over £5million and at the moment he there is no way for him to recover that money and its likely we would be dead or semi-pro without it.

exilegull wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 16:54 Those £2.2million of assets will mainly be related to the improvements the club have made to the ground (such as Bristows Bench), merchandising stock, bar stock etc. This is all worth next to nothing without the club and no one is paying any money for the club. I doubt this would fetch £500k in a liquidation scenario, it wouldn't even clear the bank debt.

Why do you claim Osborne's actual debt is £1.1million? By now the direct loans from Riveira are £5million

Why do you claim the share capital has been paid out? Its been paid in and burned through.

How do you offset debt via other companies via taxation? This doesn't even make sense - debt is a balance sheet item and taxation is on P&L.

Osborne has put at least £5million into Torquay United, he would be highly likely to get anything from the assets in a liqudation scenario and even if he could somehow offset any losses on the loan against tax, he only gets tax relief at corporate tax rate (19% at the moment).

You asked me to explain it - I have.
If you don't understand or get it - then tough.
Dont ask me to explain it again FFS.

exilegull wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 16:54 Those £2.2million of assets will mainly be related to the improvements the club have made to the ground (such as Bristows Bench), merchandising stock, bar stock etc. This is all worth next to nothing without the club and no one is paying any money for the club. I doubt this would fetch £500k in a liquidation scenario, it wouldn't even clear the bank debt.

Why do you claim Osborne's actual debt is £1.1million? By now the direct loans from Riveira are £5million

Why do you claim the share capital has been paid out? Its been paid in and burned through.

How do you offset debt via other companies via taxation? This doesn't even make sense - debt is a balance sheet item and taxation is on P&L.

Osborne has put at least £5million into Torquay United, he would be highly likely to get anything from the assets in a liqudation scenario and even if he could somehow offset any losses on the loan against tax, he only gets tax relief at corporate tax rate (19% at the moment).

25% now!

SuperNickyWroe wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 14:46 OK, the accounts don't tell you everything.........
TUAFC Ltd has £2.2m in assets and £102k in the bank.
Riviera was founded to fund TUAFC and has fixed assets of £1,000 and no actual employees.
Osborne's actual debt is £1.1m and he offsets this to other companies and via taxation.
Shares capital is £994,000 which has been paid out.
He won't give up with the assets of TUAFC, so in an accounting way, he's still in front.
Remember, he has be very careful due to the FA rules on ownership etc.

Those £2.2million of assets will mainly be related to the improvements the club have made to the ground (such as Bristows Bench), merchandising stock, bar stock etc. This is all worth next to nothing without the club and no one is paying any money for the club. I doubt this would fetch £500k in a liquidation scenario, it wouldn't even clear the bank debt.

Why do you claim Osborne's actual debt is £1.1million? By now the direct loans from Riveira are £5million

Why do you claim the share capital has been paid out? Its been paid in and burned through.

How do you offset debt via other companies via taxation? This doesn't even make sense - debt is a balance sheet item and taxation is on P&L.

Osborne has put at least £5million into Torquay United, he would be highly likely to get anything from the assets in a liqudation scenario and even if he could somehow offset any losses on the loan against tax, he only gets tax relief at corporate tax rate (19% at the moment).

OK, the accounts don't tell you everything.........
TUAFC Ltd has £2.2m in assets and £102k in the bank.
Riviera was founded to fund TUAFC and has fixed assets of £1,000 and no actual employees.
Osborne's actual debt is £1.1m and he offsets this to other companies and via taxation.
Shares capital is £994,000 which has been paid out.
He won't give up with the assets of TUAFC, so in an accounting way, he's still in front.
Remember, he has be very careful due to the FA rules on ownership etc.

I was responding to a specific point, with a technical explanation as to why that particular statement should not cause alarm.

However, regardless of Osborne's long term motives, its very difficult to blame him for the current situation - other than if you sit in the camp that he should have got rid of Johnson a lot sooner. He has injected millions into the club in recent seasons. I'm very surprised he hasn't cut and run already, I can't see anyway he can hope to re-coup the amount injected, even if he does get his alleged wicked way with the ground.

exilegull wrote: 04 Apr 2023, 10:31 I wouldn't worry too much about that - these comments are for the going concern basis of the company and it only needs to look forward 12 months from the date of approval of the financial statement which is the exact period outline.There is no need to commit to anything longer in these financial statements.

Wouldn’t worry about it?
The whole Osborne led regime is a worry. The club is a complete mess and if we get relegated we will go part time and that will be the end of TUFC as we know it

grubshed12 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 19:10 There is one very worrying paragraph see below.
"At the time of approval of these financial
statements, it is the understanding of the director that such financial support will continue for the remainder of the
2022/23 and into the 2023/24 football season. The club has embarked on a strategic plan to ensure that is can operate
on a sustainable commercial basis"
Backing only into next season...
Strategic Plan to operate. Does this mean lower league and part time .
Very worrying statements.

I wouldn't worry too much about that - these comments are for the going concern basis of the company and it only needs to look forward 12 months from the date of approval of the financial statement which is the exact period outline.There is no need to commit to anything longer in these financial statements.

Kingsgull83 wrote: 01 Apr 2023, 14:33 Hi would you expect them to make a profit with their wage bill?

No! but if our turnover was up five times on the previous year I would imagine we would turn a profit and be title chasing rather than potential relegation fodder ,

Hi would you expect them to make a profit with their wage bill?

Not even Wrexham make profit as their newly-released accounts for the 12 months to the end of last June showed a loss of £2.914m despite turnover being up five times on the previous year, at almost £6m.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65142947

gullsgullsgulls wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 15:55 - The statement "The club has embarked on a strategic plan to ensure that is can operate on a sustainable commercial basis" is utterly meaningless

Indeed. I believe this exact phrase has been in each of last 4 or 5 account statements

It is not possible to read much into a set of exempt accounts, however I would make the following two observations:

- The statement "The club has embarked on a strategic plan to ensure that is can operate on a sustainable commercial basis" is utterly meaningless and probably only included to present the fig-leaf of respectability required to allow whichever entity has ultimately provided the loan to present the asset as recoverable in its own books.

- There are two companies in the TUFC corporate group which tell the story of Osborne's plans in plain English: "TORQUAY UNITED ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED" was established in 1921 with a corporate address at Plainmoor and contains the assets of the club, it is run at a huge loss funded by Osborne via its parent company "RIVIERA STADIUM LIMITED" which holds 93% of the shares in the former, was established in 2016 and has a Bristol address. Osborne has no interest in saving the former, he wants to monetise the latter, clearly in relation to the stadium - I cannot work out what the plan is here, but there will be one. I suspect the ownership of a football club helps with the Gaming International branding and allows them to claim to be a sport and leisure business rather than simply a real estate play, but that is not enough to justify £1.1m losses every year (even with a 25% corporation tax deduction available) so there will be something worth playing for (even if there is a risk it might not pay off, Osborne may consider that a worthy gamble if the potential prize is big enough).

Cheddargull wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 09:35 Under a previous regime Plainmoor became the Launa Windows Stadium. Maybe it wasn't deemed a success.

Like their windows, did not last more than a season.