Torquay United Fans Forum

Credit where it is due, the some Morecambe fans stood up throught he whole game, the stewards left them alone as I knew they had the power to do..and their was no problems, see using your common sense can work wonders.

The stewards do seem much more stern this season, a friend of mine got told to stop taking photos whilst there too. However the ones I've seen seem to be fair and reasonable not met any of the jobsworths yet, I used to be in the specials police and you'd get the same there give some people a bit of authority and they think they rule the world! Thankfully I'm yet to come across that at Plainmoor.

Completely agree with the praise MidDevon. Just like we are entitled to dish it out whenever we have a complaint, we should be equally encouraged to report any positives like the experience you had yesterday. It's good to hear that we at least have some good stewards.

The last steward on the Last set of steps in the bench before you get to the away fans was fantastic yesterday

I got to my seat earlier than normal and was impressed at this particular steward who offered to help older members of the yellow army to their seat and had a warm smile for everyone. This went on throughout the match and at final whistle yesterday

He deserves recognition for the great job he did for the club yesterday

Glad to see common sense prevailed last night. No problems that I've heard of.

Brilliant, all that, then to be told that the Government is the Legislature, superb, saved me reading the rest...

You have a Masters, kudos, but line up 100 stewards at random and you'll be the only one.

Fine, then rip out 90% of the seats, Jesus, this isn't a Report of the Official Enquiry, it's some casual thoughts posted on the internet for the sake of argument.

And the real winner for me is point two in your rebuttal against my suggestion that risk must be balanced against reward, quite aside from everything else, THAT'S THE POINT I'VE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG. (Is shouting it too much?)

Thanks, by the way, for the good that you do. Much like referees, stewards come in for a lot of stick (not from me, and most often totally unfairly, as this very thread demonstrates), yet without you, we wouldn't have a game at all.

Matt.

There's also a potential problem with stewards in and behind the bar. Half an hour in there and I would need to sit down. If there were no seats I would fall over, the stewards would notice my inability to stand and would throw me out; a sobering thought.. :(

ferrarilover no offence but your talking out your arse.


[quote]
Equally, it's both a civil and criminal offence to record the action, either in motion picture and/or still images.
[/quote]

Its certainly not a criminal offence. The only 'extra' criminal offenses that can be committed in a football stadium are alcochol related, throwing missiles, invading the playing the area and racist/homophobic abuse. You would however be breaching teh exclusive contract the football league has with the broadcaster so thats why you are asked to stop. No-one will arrest you unless you are thought to be doing it commercially, even then its not a criminal offence.

[quote]
It's not the fault of the stewards, they are there to enforce the rules laid down by the club which in turn are dictated by the FA, Football League, police, H&SE and others. The stewards don't give a sh*t what you do, they turn up, do as they're told and go home again. The same with "The Club", which is, after all, just a group of people. Do you think Andy Candy or Club Shop Julia really care about me or you taking photos? [/quote]

I'd hope the stewards aren't there merely to 'do as they're told and go home again' as they role is mostly a customer service one. I'd also hope that Andy Candy would care about your enjoyment of the day, which may include taking personal photos.

[quote]What you want in a steward is what you want in a Royal Marine, a robot built to follow orders and generally be a deterrent and, if necessary, be a blunt instrument of physical aggression to force those who will not comply.[/quote]

Nonsense. I have been a steward for 5 seasons and bare no resemblance to what you describe, either physically or mentally. Infact I pride myself on being able to be flexible and deal with situations sensibly. I actually exist to keep the crowd safe, which in the premier league is in the ten's of thousands, if you like you can have the police fullfil that role and you can have the same antagonism that existed at Hillsborough.

As austrianandy says, it is a customer service issue. Stewards are often the only club reps you will see and the only people you have direct access to to sort out problems. I would be far more worried if Stewards aren't helping in this regard than if they ask someone to sit down. Incidentally the seating issue is complex and again leads back to Hillsborough and the fact that the authorities are not prepared to take the kid gloves off with regards to football fans

[quote]With the best will in the world, we are not dealing with PhD candidates here, the less thinking they have to do, the better.[/quote]
No, but I do have a masters degree. :-D

[quote]They CAN'T use their common sense, because the FA/UEFA/FIFA/police/H&SE rules don't allow them to. But that they could.[/quote]

The police will not allow Arsenal to play a home game if either the Victoria line or the Piccadilly line is down for H&S reasons. 60,000 peple trying to fit there way onto one of these lines would lead to deaths. Bloody nanny state!

Common sense is the requisite attribute for any steward type role. The situations you encounter are always slightly different and you must make a decision. Seriously you don't want robot jobsworths doing it, which is precisely the problem!
And ease off on H&S rules. For one they ensure a steward on every exit so we don't get a situation where the one bloke with the keys is off on his tea brake therefore leading to the majority of the Bradford Fire deaths. Your annoyance at these relatively trivial issues at football; sitting/standing, pictures, jobsworths is the trade off for people NOT DYING at football grounds, we had I think 1 person die in this decade and 0 in the last. Hopefully we can improve it further so you aren't annoyed but its a very hard balance to get right. People like the German model but they actually have a lot more crowd issues than us, the end of the season invasion at Koln last year for example.

[quote]

Discretion was used, which is why the stewards asked those who were standing to sit down, then, when they refused, they allowed them to stand, rather than having the match abandoned on H&S grounds.[/quote]
This is my favorite. No game has been or will be abandoned because of persistent standing, what a ridiculous paranoia. H&S grounds for abandoning a match include bomb threats, stadium infrastructure problems, gas leak, fire and riotous behaviour. Millwall at Luton in 1990 gets the game abandoned, Stanley standing in the bench doesn't.

[quote]I was once among a fairly large away contingent with TUFC who were asked to sit for just 60 seconds by a steward, then he said he'd not bother us again. For a laugh, I was the only one who remain standing and not a word was said to me.
[/quote] Take that 'Elf & Safety, you rebel you.

[quote]It is, there is a level of acceptable risk to be balanced with the relative reward in all situations. For 30 seconds after a goal, standing is an acceptable risk, for the other 99.9% of the time, it's not (well, it's not deemed to be).
[/quote]
And finally ITS NOT JUST H & S!! You will be told to sit down for one of a number of reasons.
1. because you are blocking someone elses view and they have complained or a steward has noticed the problem. Consider this H&S nightmare!
2. Because the FA will fine clubs for standing.
3. Because a standing crowd is harder to monitor, it is harder to react to things stewards cannot see.
4. Because people will and have sued the club for being pushed forward a row and getting there leg hurt between the seat infront and the floor. You can't moan about H&S being a bitch when so many people will sue if they get hurt.

[quote]The Government are not responsible for Statute, the Legislature are responsible for Statute[/quote]
The government is the legislature.

[quote]I couldn't agree more about the terracing, rip out all the seats and make everyone stand, it did us perfectly well for a great many years and it will do us just as well now.[/quote]
tell that to the elderly and physically disabled who can't stand, and young children who won't be able to see. What about the great surges that used to occur when goals were scored? You think people would put up with the resulting headaches in our highly strung society.

Matt, as we all know, the Bench is steep, especially from the back. I do think the club should just go back to opening the terrace again. As I said in the OP, we can always open more of the Bench to home fans if the away following is a small one.

It just feels like we're slowly tainting ourselves due to saving a few quid.

Aside from being FAR too definite in apportioned liability, the first element is largely correct.
I think the club are doing precisely as every other club does, making a token effort to enforce the rules with which we are saddled by those in command. There will be the word 'reasonable' somewhere in relevant legislation or case law and every club will have a different interpretation of what 'reasonable steps to prevent infringement of ground regulations' (for example) really means.
Yes, we should be allowed to stand, yes, it's daft that we have rules which no one wants, but all the while the rules are there, I think it's a perfect compromise, stewards get to feel like they're doing something, as do clubs, the authorities keep off our backs and we still get to stand anyway.

I want a signed copy ;-)

Matt.

It is not law that fans should sit in the seats provided. If a club recklessly ignored safety regulations and there was an incident, yes they would be liable. Clubs are choosing not to stop standing, but if it were a real risk of course they wouldn’t. I haven’t been in the Bench but it from the Pop Side it looks quite steep, so maybe Torquay feel the need to get stewards to try to get fans to sit. Maybe next time they’ll open the away terrace.
We need a choice – terraces for those who want to stand and seats for those who want to sit.

I mentioned my book because I thought it might be of interest. Plenty of references to Torquay – I’ve used Torquay’s various visits to Barnet as examples of inconsistency and how much better it is to have choice to sit or stand (after several years of only seats, one year it went the other way and there was only a terrace, but now there’s choice again).

This is Torquayfans, not RateMyBook!

The Government are not responsible for Statute, the Legislature are responsible for Statute and the Judiciary are responsible for applying the law. The club would be putting itself at very great risk (in law) were it to disregard the FA's regulations and then allow something tragic to happen.

You won't stop people celebrating when a goal is scored, that's impractical. You can't stop people getting in and out, that's pointless. The only thing left is the standing during passive play.

I couldn't agree more about the terracing, rip out all the seats and make everyone stand, it did us perfectly well for a great many years and it will do us just as well now.

Matt.

It would not be proportional to abandon a match due to standing, so it is never considered. It is not even proportional to close an area of a ground where persistent standing occurs hence despite threats to do so the safety authorities have never done this.

Yes clubs are told to have the ground regulation but the League & FA don’t make them to enforce it. If there is pressure to do so it comes from Safety Advisory Groups (usually FLA (SGSA) Inspector or local authority).

I can’t think who is more relevant to ask than those responsible for the Football Spectators Act – the government.

You provide further examples showing there is inconsistency as to whether fans are forced to sit at different grounds. So why if some clubs are willing to turn a blind eye do others make such a fuss?

It has been independently shown (Atkins Report Old Trafford) that the greatest risk is when a goal is scored, the next greatest when supporters leave, and the least is passive standing during play. So why try to stop it.

Of course the simple answer is to have terraces at every ground so everyone has the choice to stand (or to open them!).

If you are interested in the subject of standing can I recommend:

[b]Stand Up Sit Down - A Choice to Watch Football [/b]

For a hundred years most supporters watched football from terraces, a culture that was an integral part of the game. By the 1980s though, neglected stadia, hooliganism and a lack of concern for safety meant that football had to change, and after 96 Liverpool fans tragically died at Hillsborough, Lord Taylor’s report recommended that our grounds should be all-seated. Many people however believe that something of the soul has been taken away from watching football and that standing is the natural way to feel part of the game.

In Stand Up Sit Down Peter Caton considers the arguments for and against the choice to stand to watch football. He visits the 23 English grounds that still have terraces, seeking the views of clubs and supporters, travels to Yorkshire to watch rugby league and to Germany to stand on a convertible terrace. With extensively researched background, the author analyses the disasters and hooliganism that led to all-seating, and the many changes that have occurred in the game. He considers various solutions proposed to allow standing, and highlights obstacles facing those backing the choice to stand. His own experiences of watching football at all levels add insight and interest. The book ends by asking its own questions and with a whiff of conspiracy.

325 Pages ISBN 9781780881775 Published by Matador (Troubador)

£6.99 through http://amzn.to/Kox5uH

[quote="standupsitdown"]To answer your points:

There is no way that the game would have been abandoned due to fans standing. Thousands stand in seats at many Premier League grounds and there has never even been a suggestion of abandoning a match.[/quote]

This is either because there is no mechanism for a match to be abandoned on safety grounds (which, of course, there is), or because those who make the rules also accept that those rules will be broken and that punishment and reaction must be proportional to the offence committed. It's the same reason that you don't get the death penalty for speeding, or a fine for murder.

[quote="standupsitdown"] I have stood at the back of the stand in many Torquay away games. Provided behaviour is reasonable, the home club uses its discretion not to force fans to sit, based on the minimal risk (if any) caused by them standing. [/quote]

See above.

[quote="standupsitdown"] I am very familiar with the regulations. Stadia for English league games are nothing to do with UEFA or FIFA. The requirement to sit in one’s seat is simply a ground regulation. My point refers to the inconsistency between football and concerts – even in the same stadium [/quote]

Hence I also mentioned the FA and the H&SE etc. The ground regulations for members of the Football League are based on a model, created by the FA, which includes [i]"Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress"[/i]

[quote="standupsitdown"] I have written to MPs, the Minister for Sport and the DCMS on many occasions. No one has ever been able to answer why the Taylor recommendation for all seating was applied only to football grounds, when he recommended that it should apply to all stadia designated under the safety of Sports Grounds Act. [/quote]

Then you're asking the wrong people then, aren't you. If I ask my Nan about physics, she can't answer me, it doesn't matter how many times I ask. :~D

[quote="standupsitdown"] Examples – Sunderland & Nottingham Forest have cut away allocations for a number of clubs citing persistent standing, but most other clubs (Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Villa, West Ham for example) see similar standing but don’t cut allocations. And from experience watching Torquay – I have been threatened with ejection for standing at Barnet, Rushden & Southend, but stood without being questioned at Spurs, Northampton, Old Trafford and Wembley. [/quote]

Manchester United have had their away allocation restricted severely for a number of years now because of persistent standing. I was asked to sit down at Wembley, despite being in the very rearmost row, looks like my steward was more awake than yours. Different clubs take different approaches, just like anyone in authority. Some coppers will nick you for 35 in a 30, some will let you off, some will summons you to Court and some will give you a ticket. I was once among a fairly large away contingent with TUFC who were asked to sit for just 60 seconds by a steward, then he said he'd not bother us again. For a laugh, I was the only one who remain standing and not a word was said to me.

[quote="standupsitdown"] It is not false logic. If the argument is that supporters must sit for safety then it seems strange that some clubs play music encouraging fans to stand, celebrate and even dance.[/quote]

It is, there is a level of acceptable risk to be balanced with the relative reward in all situations. For 30 seconds after a goal, standing is an acceptable risk, for the other 99.9% of the time, it's not (well, it's not deemed to be).

Matt.

To answer your points:

There is no way that the game would have been abandoned due to fans standing. Thousands stand in seats at many Premier League grounds and there has never even been a suggestion of abandoning a match.

I have stood at the back of the stand in many Torquay away games. Provided behaviour is reasonable, the home club uses its discretion not to force fans to sit, based on the minimal risk (if any) caused by them standing.

I am very familiar with the regulations. Stadia for English league games are nothing to do with UEFA or FIFA. The requirement to sit in one’s seat is simply a ground regulation. My point refers to the inconsistency between football and concerts – even in the same stadium

I have written to MPs, the Minister for Sport and the DCMS on many occasions. No one has ever been able to answer why the Taylor recommendation for all seating was applied only to football grounds, when he recommended that it should apply to all stadia designated under the safety of Sports Grounds Act.

Examples – Sunderland & Nottingham Forest have cut away allocations for a number of clubs citing persistent standing, but most other clubs (Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Villa, West Ham for example) see similar standing but don’t cut allocations. And from experience watching Torquay – I have been threatened with ejection for standing at Barnet, Rushden & Southend, but stood without being questioned at Spurs, Northampton, Old Trafford and Wembley.

It is not false logic. If the argument is that supporters must sit for safety then it seems strange that some clubs play music encouraging fans to stand, celebrate and even dance.