Torquay United Fans Forum

WestLondonYellow

MellowYellow wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 17:14 Worthing had two players sent off and still managed to win 4-1 away to Weymouth

And this is relevant how exactly?

WestLondonYellow

Southampton Gull wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 13:02 If he couldn't build anything for his "beloved" Bristol Rovers he sure as hell isn't going to build anything for us. All this talk of potential new stadiums pisses me off because people need to get real and understand there is a money making objective behind his ownership of the club. That's his sole purpose and it will obviously feature a land grab somewhere, I think that Plainmoor is the carrot he will dangle to get his hands on whatever plot of land he's really after and the council is already invested in it through the school. Talk of building on the Plainmoor site is a red herring. Provisions for life after Osborne need looking into, talk of new stadiums hampers the attention of the ordinary fan which is his tried and tested MO.

Spot on.

WestLondonYellow

culmstockgull wrote: ↑17 Feb 2024, 14:41 I think that is a tad unkind, had a good pedigree before us ,came as a midfielder, johnson played him at centre half and right back, I believe this is another play who will go onto to better things under a decent coach.

no doubt, keep an eye on him, I believe as many other players have done once they escape our currently toxic club, he will go on to prove he is a decent player elsewhere.

WestLondonYellow

midtable wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 00:49 If nobody can afford to take over the club what difference will a protest make except create a toxic atmosphere?

If 30 fans remortgage their homes that would be a start but as we we all moan about a few pence added to the beer prices, nobody is going to raise any money.

“We are talking about a small group but I think they should stay at home if they are going to be like that, because it clearly affected the players on the pitch. It was just unacceptable in my view … I think I deserve more respect too”

So do you want it to be a bigger group before you are ready to follow along? Or Do you want all to stay quiet and stay away? WHich is it?

Not Gary as some would like to think but Norwich boss David Wagner gets the funk on with some Canaries fans who were less than supportive towards his substitutions during the 4-2 win over Watford which has lifted them into the Championship playoff places.

From PASOTI members: - https://pasoti.co.uk/threads/torquay-un ... 961/page-2

"OK, I'm aware this may come over as heartless, what I'm aiming for is a qualified low level of sympathy.

Not for the situation you understand, malevolent owners are a universal enemy.

No, it was the earlier comment about yesterday's protest amounting to 'a dozen teenagers and a sheet with a message on it'. WTF?

If Gulls fans as a whole are largely apathetic to the situation and aren't protesting in numbers, aren't seemingly getting vexed about someone ****ing up their club... why should anyone else?... why try and garner 'flying pickets' from other clubs when those most directly affected are largely muttering a collective "meh"?

Yes Albion stood by us and God bless every one of 'em... but we were already flippin' livid and completely mobilised for the fight ourselves. There is a huge difference.

We were approaching/in administration without a pot to p155 in... resource wise Torquay are a big fish in a small pond, they have the second highest gates. Their ON FIELD 'woes' are not for the want of relative resources. They've come down as a full time squad with a superior attitude over their part time newly aquired peers... who have been running rings round them.

Its harsh, the ownership situation is just plain wrong. But they are architects of their own problems on the pitch and just like charity... protest begins at home.

Come back and ask again for my assistance when you've done some hard yards yourselves. You've not raised so much as a single pitchfork yet... let alone an angry mob."

"I have to agree with Xy on this one.

I haven't seen anything like the force we created when crap was being thrown at us.

You need to fight like dogs when your club is in danger, and I've seen nothing of that."

"Having perused their forum quite recently I thought that immediately I saw this plea for assistance yesterday... they aren't even remotely as animated as they need to be and can't even agree that the team is poor and Johnson needs to go

I diplomatically held my tongue though until one of ours demanded "come on you greens supporters..." as if it were our responsibility to do something... "come on you yellows" more like, light a fire under yourselves.

I'm sure there's plenty of good will and practical support we could offer. But they say you should never rouse a sleepwalker and if they want to sleep walk into non-existence then that's their problem."

"They need to put pressure on that scumbag Clarke Osborne, they need to get very personal.

They need to keep their plans off line as much as they can as their security guys will be paid to pot a stop to their games.

Games need to be disrupted as much as they can, chickens, tennis balls have all be done, but I'm sure something else can be thought of.

The link with the Council needs to be sussed out, there must be someone there working for (nudge nudge) Osborne in some way or another.

That club announcement a few weeks ago, should have been the last straw, it's obvious what he's up to, he wants the land, and is basically saying so in that missive.

Don't give the pig an inch, it's YOUR club not his. Show no respect or deference, take what is yours. Go in with that attitude they may start to think quiet, but 20 youngies singing "sack the board' won't cut any mustard in the state your in.

He doesn't give a flying fart about your club, he want's it knocked down and made into high density housing. You'll be playing part time in the 8th/9th division unless you mobilise."

"Meanwhile on their forum they're arguing amongst themselves about what to do...

TUST - Show Venom and a backbone - TorquayFans.com | Torquay United Fans Forum

Shows there is some fight in them. But its so small that even on their 'protest thread' it quickly comes back to the almost irrelevant subject of 'on pitch' matters...

...YOUR CLUB IS BEING STOLEN, WAKE THE **** UP!!

It calls to mind those lines in War of the Worlds (I only have Jeff Wayne's version to draw reference from) when the earth is about to be invaded by Martians...

"It seems totally incredible to me now that everyone spent that evening as though it were just like any other. From the railway station came the sound of shunting trains, ringing and rumbling
Softened almost into melody by the distance. It all seemed so safe and tranquil"

"It won't if the fans do nothing about it.

Osborne is depending on their apathy."

Argyle are there to help us, as are Exeter. Are you picking up the sentiment on what they think of the general apathy in the Torquay fanbase? Osborne is relying on this Apathy to continue and your post above is exactly that.
"while any one crab can easily start to climb out, it will nonetheless be pulled back in by the others, ensuring the group's collective demise."

WestLondonYellow

midtable wrote: ↑15 Feb 2024, 00:49 If nobody can afford to take over the club what difference will a protest make except create a toxic atmosphere?

If 30 fans remortgage their homes that would be a start but as we we all moan about a few pence added to the beer prices, nobody is going to raise any money.

“We are talking about a small group but I think they should stay at home if they are going to be like that, because it clearly affected the players on the pitch. It was just unacceptable in my view … I think I deserve more respect too”

Not Gary as some would like to think but Norwich boss David Wagner gets the funk on with some Canaries fans who were less than supportive towards his substitutions during the 4-2 win over Watford which has lifted them into the Championship playoff places.

WestLondonYellow

Yeofan wrote: ↑14 Feb 2024, 21:25 I'm interested to know what the Torquay fans think would have happened without Clarke Osborne.

Why?

WestLondonYellow

MellowYellow wrote: ↑14 Feb 2024, 20:10 The provisional development for building a stadium and community facility was £3.5 million

We have a Stadium already. we have a club to save, a Phoenix club is only needed if there is no TUFC, in which case, we have a Stadium already

See link for how they proposed to raise the capital:

https://fc-utd.co.uk/files/documents/FC ... %20Doc.pdf

Edit: It appears to meet spiralling costs of the new stadium additional loans were taken out and total cost of completion was £6.3 million nearly double what was envisaged.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... 0k-8188428

WestLondonYellow

MellowYellow wrote: ↑14 Feb 2024, 19:48
Characteristics that are typical of most successful entrepreneurs who have navigated their way to the top.

I would say they are characteristics of a Sociopath and not the characteristics at all of most entrepreneurs. I know many people who have set up businesses and they are far from, cold and calculating.

I get the drift that our owner acquired the club for reasons that may not be appropriate but the root cause of our demise started with a consortium of 10 business men who were not prepared to put their own money into the money drain and put their shares in the club up as collateral to borrow £150,000 from Uncle Clarke, then relinquished control to avoid going into administration. So in effect Uncle Clarke rescued the club from the brink of extinction albeit for financial reasons. At least Uncle Clarke has given a ‘cast iron guarantee’ that the club won’t leave Plainmoor unless there is a ready-to-go new stadium to move into. It will be for the Council to hold him to that guarantee should events move forward namely, build it first and leave the freehold under the protection of the council.

How many times does it need to be stated, we are in his debt grip because he has an agenda, and that agenda does not involve building anything real, and in the incredibly unlikely event that he did build something do you honestly think it would be better than Plainmoor, in design, size and feel? And do you honestly believe there wouldn't be a rent to pay on it to him?

Look at the state of things right now for the evidence playing out in front of your eyes.

Cast Iron, are you sure? Do you mean he said it in an interview? and you believe this? Ask Bristol Rovers and Swindon Speedway fans if Osborne is to be believed.

Aside from the usual retort 'he has not built one yet' one can also ask the question where were all the Phoenix club advocates 7 years ago when they could have taken over the club for less than the price of a starter home.

The common retort is common because it is valid, yet you seem to be attempting to reduce that fact to unimportant and dismissal then swiftly move to ask an unrelated question, why?

Nevermind 7 years ago, the last two years have provided all the clarity necessary to see what is happening and that action needs to be taken. 7 years ago, no one really knew what was in store and the Supporters Trust was in it's infancy. The success of a few years ago also did a job to lull all into a false sense of security. Wonder why that ref. disallowed those to goals ever? I bet you don't.

"The challenges of maintaining our club ought to be looked at from all angles. While many may see a situation from one angle, others will see it from another. Somewhere in there will be a middle ground where everyone's opinions are respected."

Lot's of words, not much meaning here, not falling for it.

On that note, I will concede that Uncle Clarke has achieved the impossible feat of uniting an entire fanbase behind one opinion: hating him.

Not you it seems, your beloved "Uncle Clark" is a hero in your eyes.

He is simply Osborne....Uncle bloody clarke FFS

WestLondonYellow

WestLondon Yellow, we totally agree "to obtain the best outcome for torquay united " is the only thing we should be discussing, I have never been convinced that direct action is ever a successful tactic and I walked on the aldermaston marches. I still cautiion restraint and further alienation of the owner. There are many that steadfastly hold the view that based on his previous dealings he had only one plan and that was to obtain the freehold of plainmoor, as each year passes and more obstacles appear to thwart that supposed plan that belief loses traction as he continues to bank roll the club way past the point of any profit margins he could expect from developing the ground or even the supposed alternaive site at Quinta.

You raise a key question mark here. Seemingly, according to what we are being led to believe he is just a generous guy and doing us a favour, yet he says himself he has no interest in football and is first and foremost a businessman, so right there something isn't adding up. The lack of transparency on that sum points to, for good reason, a hidden agenda

"I appreciate that the TUST are doing their best and may have the outline plan for a doomsday scenario if the worst comes to pass, but things are never as simple as we think they going to be, come May or sooner and Osborne comes to the conclusion, what the hell, I have not achieved my plan whatever that was and the aggravation and abuse are not worth the effort. I am pulling the plug. I will cut my losses and move on like most successful business people do. Or he could say the first person to come up with 5 million can have the club .if you dont I have the name , the lease , the players contracts etc and you can start from scratch."

This relates back to my previous paragraph. He hasn't concluded "what the hell" because none of this adds up. The annual losses, the lack of any meaninful planning for a new stadium, the decline over the last 2 years, the early success, the solid position of the manager despite results, the constant injuries etc.

"It then remains that our sole hope is a late application to the western league, sensible questions from the league such as,have you got an approved ground, have you got a team, have you even got a manager, have you even got a strip or a name, do you have a budget, these are things that cannot be sorted out overnight, with say 500 TUST members who all have their own differing opinion and a say on our new name/manager do we have to go through time consuming ballots
I know the western league management committee are volunteers who meet once a month and less if at all during the summer as all their business is usually ratified as the season ends, they cannot hold a place on a maybe or possibly or pretty please, who will make way for our new phoenix team, will that team appeal against being bounced down a league.
I appreciate these are all negative comments but realism is never easy."[/b]

This assumes Osborne didn't foresee all this years in advance and that things are nor going exactly to plan for him. I don't believe he is going to be walking away anytime soon, he has a debt grip on us. He is a very cunning, cold and astute operator, and this is like a game of chess, we are trying to catch up and cannot see the whole board, while he is 20 moves ahead of us.

Regarding a Phoenix club and Western league, i would see this as worst case scenario and i believe there are many opportunities to reach for prior to that scenario, first and foremost would be to save the club as is and retain TUFC.
The hurdles you have listed regarding Western League set up, should be able to be overcome with the right planning, energy and effort. But as said above, i would envisage an all out effort to ensure against that scenario and see it as a last resort and a contingency plan.

WestLondonYellow

Currently, there are no plans drawn up for a new stadium and no location agreed on. In addition, the team is at it's lowest position ever with a Manager in place who says himself he is "going nowhere"

But Edwards and Osborne get very excited about building things, so we should be all good.

WestLondonYellow

standupsitdown wrote: ↑14 Feb 2024, 16:11 We or Osborne's company? Which one, there's about 1000 he has his name to

Osborne's company of course :-) but there is as much chance of this actually happening as there is seeing Piglet flying by the window so the discussion is a distraction from another agenda.

One thing to add though, if 3G/4G pitches would be so lucrative, why not build them anyway, alongside a cafe/bar etc, and leave the whole new stadium proposal out of it. Surely it matters not if there is a new stadium next to them or not, if the pitches are supposedly outside the stadium as mentioned in "TorquayUnited" post.
They could be part of a bad weather training ground solution for the club. And wouldn't it be easier to do this, regarding cost, location and planning permission, to set up this lucrative income minus a new stadium?

However, as already mentioned above, all this talk is nothing but a distraction, it's an Osborne tactic and part of the mode of operation he always follows. I am certain some of the posters on this forum are fully paid up Osborne minions.

We need a lot more clarity on the finances on the existing set up, some forensic accountancy needs to be conducted rather than just accept what we are told the losses are.

WestLondonYellow

culmstockgull wrote: ↑13 Feb 2024, 18:18 Westlondon gull, carry on the petty comments and mind games, it just proves your arguement is weak, I have said all a long when complaining about the club,be careful what you wish for, you as you have taken on the mantle as agitator in chief you could be the one we talk about when the club is no more, that should make you popular

I can only speak for myself, but i can say hand on heart that there has been a question mark over what action, or perhaps non action to go with in order to at least attempt to secure the best outcome for TUFC.
The balance has been shifting towards action being required for some time now, in my mind, but I can only speak for myself, though i am sure there are many others who think along the same lines and perhaps reached those conclusions before I did.

I haven't as far as I can see, made any petty comments, or played any mind games but if you feel that is the case and have interpreted me that way, it wasn't my intention. We as a fanbase are going to all need to pull together and get on the same page if we are to have a chance of securing a future for the club.

Is there a risk of losing the club completely, yes I think so. I believe there is a risk of that from both sitting still and accepting the current situation and the steady downward slope it's being pushed down, and I also believe there is a risk of "no club" through taking action, though on the strength of what we are seeing play out, I believe the former is the greater risk.

You have to go with your own instinct and I and no one else should judge you for that. Perhaps as the weeks go by you might come around to see it the way I do.

WestLondonYellow

"Reading the article by the co owner of maidstone must make scary reading for those who contemplate a phoenix club/ or taking over a going concern from osborne with the existing club and plainmoor in place. Although the article is five years old and costs have gone up hugely we can see you have to generate at least 1.5 million plus per season to stand still,that is with a club like maidstone that has a 3G ptich that gets 50 hours of paid use a week, to be competitive probably add another million a season in higher costs and salaries for better players.
When we talk about share issues, if we could find homes for 10,000 shares at say £100 pound each,, that would raise as a one off injection of start up capital one million pounds, a phoenix club, new venue, playing staff, manager , travelling , insurance etc etc would make a serious dent in that figure even in the toolstation league, no use at all to a national league side even one in the south where we know the day to day running costs of our club far exceed the existing revenue.so like previous owners of our club quickly discovered we could have enough working capital to may be and it is a big maybe finance the club for one season. After that what, pray for a rich owner with no interest in football.
Additionally,the shares must have some re sale or trade in value, or some benefits to holding such shares such as entry discount, season ticket discount or 10 pence of your pint in the bar , all of these are workable but the downside is you are already diluting your revenue.
I think supporters would willingly invest in their home club but they are not stupid or have money to throw away, they cannot be considered junk stock from the outset .if people wished to go down that road they would have invested in the TUST on mass to that value stated and that has not and will not happen."

WestLondonYellow

TUST_Official wrote: ↑12 Feb 2024, 22:05 Are YOU happy with the way YOUR football club is being run?

So many aspects of the running of our wonderful football club are causing concern among the fan base. It is worrying to hear of so many long-standing supporters staying away from games because they are so disillusioned and others threatening not to buy a season ticket next year unless things improve.

Rising levels of dissatisfaction are evident from declining attendances, recent matchday protests and the number of critical views posted across social media. Yet those in charge of the club from owner to CEO to manager give the impression that everything is fine and we should all be positive or not express our views.

Well things are not ‘fine’ and now is the time for concerned supporters who have the future of the club at heart to unite and make our voices heard.

TUST is working with other interested groups to bring supporters together to press for change. Further details will be released very soon.

JOIN HERE - www.tust.co.uk

I would class this as some potential progress in play.

WestLondonYellow

MellowYellow wrote: ↑12 Feb 2024, 21:31 Club chairman (and effective owner) David Bosomworth, Halifax Town (2019) "it costs on average £150,000 a month to run National League FC Halifax" Town.

5 years later after Covid and Inflation how much in todays terms

ok, but we are NLS, although i assume it's similar when remaining full time.

So let's say 150 x 12 = 1.8 million (Does this include taxes paid from revenue?)

Based on average attendance of 2000

so approx. 2-3 home games a month brings in approx. 80-120K a month 9 months per year. Taking that as average for league game revenue that's 100K x 9 = 900k ( There are 23 home games a year, so with an average attendance of 2000, we take £920,000 a season for league games)

Add some TV money and additional gate receipts for cup games, with our record lets say 4 cup games, so another 160K = 1.06million (if anyone can elaborate on this and provide more accuracy please do)

Add Advertising and sponsorship pure guess here but assuming at least over 100K for the year, (again please shed more light if you can) = 1.16million

We have sold players but we never get told the fee, if there is one. Other clubs seem to be able to command a fee but we seem to somehow always miss out, why is that. Transfer fees received = £0, still at £1.16 million

Corporate facilities, Catering income, - again a guess at present - £250k per season

That's a total of £1.41 million, 400K shy of the annual costs given by Halifax, albeit 5 years ago. We are supposed to have lost £1m per year for 7 years, how?
Our gates have been higher at times than 2000, during covid the games were available on a pay per view basis, which opened up the potential for revenue from all fans who geographically can't attend, what kind of revenue numbers were brought in from those pay per view games?? we've had tv money, we've had big games, players have had decent moves to bigger clubs, why are we unsustainable to the tune of a £1million deficit per season.

I appreciate this breakdown is never going to be fully accurate, may be way off, but just trying to get an understanding of exactly how we are unsustainable and by what numbers.

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