Torquay United Fans Forum

DevonBee wrote: ↑18 Apr 2023, 20:15 2-0 down… defence all over the place. Omar on for Lapslie
Doh !

Lapslie clearly wasn't fit - he gave up possession about thee times in the run up to Chesterfields second.

Men versus boys so far.

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑14 Apr 2023, 19:23 You asked me to explain it - I have.
If you don't understand or get it - then tough.
Dont ask me to explain it again FFS.

SNW - we've both been on this website a long time and I'm not looking for a bad mannered dispute with you as we are both LT Torquay United fans with the best interest of the club at heart.

Howeve, you haven't explained, you have made a lot of assertions that from an accounting perspective I can tell you are complete nonsense, hence you cannot answer my specific questions.

I am trying to get you, or anyone else to specifically change their mind about Clarke Osborne, but posts that somehow assume there is some clever wheeze about what he has done so far do not hold water. He has bankrolled the club to the tune of over £5million and at the moment he there is no way for him to recover that money and its likely we would be dead or semi-pro without it.

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑14 Apr 2023, 15:46 OK, the accounts don't tell you everything.........
TUAFC Ltd has £2.2m in assets and £102k in the bank.
Riviera was founded to fund TUAFC and has fixed assets of £1,000 and no actual employees.
Osborne's actual debt is £1.1m and he offsets this to other companies and via taxation.
Shares capital is £994,000 which has been paid out.
He won't give up with the assets of TUAFC, so in an accounting way, he's still in front.
Remember, he has be very careful due to the FA rules on ownership etc.

Those £2.2million of assets will mainly be related to the improvements the club have made to the ground (such as Bristows Bench), merchandising stock, bar stock etc. This is all worth next to nothing without the club and no one is paying any money for the club. I doubt this would fetch £500k in a liquidation scenario, it wouldn't even clear the bank debt.

Why do you claim Osborne's actual debt is £1.1million? By now the direct loans from Riveira are £5million

Why do you claim the share capital has been paid out? Its been paid in and burned through.

How do you offset debt via other companies via taxation? This doesn't even make sense - debt is a balance sheet item and taxation is on P&L.

Osborne has put at least £5million into Torquay United, he would be highly likely to get anything from the assets in a liqudation scenario and even if he could somehow offset any losses on the loan against tax, he only gets tax relief at corporate tax rate (19% at the moment).

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑12 Apr 2023, 13:41 No theories from me either.
Just stating the facts that can be seen in the accounts.
Do you trust him?

I don't trust him, as I still don't understand his motives, but I feel differently now, than on the day he walked through the door, with the reputation and history he had, given he has propped the club up with around £5million without any security and with no real prospect of actually securing the Plainmoor site for his own purposes until the club have a long term home.

Again, you are still hinting at the cloak and dagger stuff. What facts that can be seen in the accounts are you referring to? The fact it comes from Riveria? Again so what, what significance do you think this has?

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑12 Apr 2023, 12:35 Look, I'm not interested in what you think, but the info is there for all to see.
You come on with your theories and when someone points it out to you you're still not interested and want me to explain how it works with Osborne and Riviera Ltd. If you can't go back in time and remember the reason why he was so interested, then that's your problem.

I haven't come on with any theories, I'm simply stating facts. £5million has been injected into the club in the last years to keep it running. You're the one with the theories, I'd appreciate you explain in black and white what you meant by the below

If you care to look at the accounts, its there for one and all to see - If you can be bothered that is.

Or otherwise, just simply acknowledge you don't trust his motives,

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑12 Apr 2023, 11:56 Well done for the penny finally dropping......

No, thats a cop out, it provides no response to my question around why you were telling people to look at the accounts and the method of financing as if it somehow nefarious compared to some other method.

I have been and remain unconvinced by Osborne's ownership of the club and his long term intentions, but over the past 5 years the club has been bankrolled with now £5million of his cash - its very difficult to see any possible way to get a return on that, especially when the council have thankfully shown an intention to look after the interests of the club and not release land until a new stadium is a reality. Without that injection of cash over the past 5 years, its highly unlikely the club would still be full-time, there have never been a queue of wealthy backers to takeover Torquay United.

So cut the bullshit and the nudge, nudge, wink, wink stuff and tell me exactly why you think Osborne financing via Riviera Limited is somehow not what it seems,

Southampton Gull wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 20:49 ' To say he's putting his hands in his pockets is pure fantasy, we're a tax write off and ultimately the sacrificial lamb in his business portfolio just as history tells us.

He is injecting around £1million per year and the total loans are now approaching £5million. The maximum benefit this could be as tax write off is a £1million reduction in corporation tax if it was offset against profits but as it is coming through a holding company with no other activity this doesn't appear to be the case - and even if so who would spend £5million to save £1million.

It may well be that he other long term interests through the club ownership, but up until now he has simply sunk a substantial amount into the club and there seems to be very little prospect of recovering that.

I doubt the budget is a top 10 budget, but I'm equally sure its not a bottom 4 budget

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 15:10 And your point is?
One of his companies did perhaps.....

SNW - you were the one that brought up the method of financing. Its been made by loans from another company - so what? This is still Osborne bankrolling Torquay United, unless you can indicate what significance you think it all has?

brucie wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 11:12 I think that the signing of Nouble has just shown that we've been relying on Jarvis for far too long. That we've been struggling without any striking options for half the season must be the fault of the manager - it cant possibly down to anyone else.

Our current form is incredible - we had zero chance of staying up three weeks ago. Its even more hard to believe as we have managed those 4 wins without any striking option on the bench - a further illustration of the managers chronic mismanagement of the squad throughout the season.

Our upturn in form is due to quality loan signings Lawrence, Dawson, Stobbs and Collins (with Evans who is actually half decent as well) and also the return to fitness of the likes of Lapslie and Hall, plus of course the addition of Nouble.

Unfortunately its also an indication of what dire recruitment we had prior to this and the mess we are left in when most of the aforementioned players leave at the end of the season.

Lets also remember the league has been a two horse race all season - look at the teams in the play off positions Woking, Eastleigh and Boreham Wood for example.

The quality of teams is just not there - that we are unlikely to finish above Aldershot, Dorking, Gateshead and Maidenhed just isnt good enough I'm afraid.

I hope that Johnson somehow pulls it off, but blindly saying you support him when he has got us in this mess in the first place is nonsensical.

Wholeheartedly agree with this and the posts of others. This seasons debacle rests entirely on Johnson. It was clear before the a ball was kicked this season that the recruitment was wrong and utterly obvious after 10 games - I'm not sure whether it was a limited network or ultimately just hubris that led Johnson to think it was possible to build mainly from cast offs form football league youth systems. It just doesn't work and I actually feel sorry for a lot of these young players who were just left to flounder and have their confidence shot to pieces. That we then seemed to stick with that strategy for most of the season makes it worse. Outside the top teams it is a poor division this season which makes the performance shocking - it hasn't been rocket science to turn it around. the key pieces have been a 32 year old picked up from the division below and an out of favour journeyman striker - 3 or 4 of those types of players signed instead of a load of untried youths would likely have resulted in a safe midtable position and maybe one of two of the younger players could have shined as Collins, Evans and Stobbs are now showing.

I don't say this with any malice, its been mostly a good ride under Johnson, but it still looks highly likely we will end up back where we started when Johnson took over, which ultimately means the square root of FA has been achieved under Johnson, which is ultimately failure.

SuperNickyWroe wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 10:47
I would suggest that you look at the the accounts, because by digging into them you see how he has funded the club.

He's put in loans. So what? As the expression goes you cannot get blood out of a stone.

Its still incredibly tough - looking at the remaining fixtures for clubs around and it does look like 9 points will still likely be needed

I was responding to a specific point, with a technical explanation as to why that particular statement should not cause alarm.

However, regardless of Osborne's long term motives, its very difficult to blame him for the current situation - other than if you sit in the camp that he should have got rid of Johnson a lot sooner. He has injected millions into the club in recent seasons. I'm very surprised he hasn't cut and run already, I can't see anyway he can hope to re-coup the amount injected, even if he does get his alleged wicked way with the ground.

grubshed12 wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023, 20:10 There is one very worrying paragraph see below.
"At the time of approval of these financial
statements, it is the understanding of the director that such financial support will continue for the remainder of the
2022/23 and into the 2023/24 football season. The club has embarked on a strategic plan to ensure that is can operate
on a sustainable commercial basis"
Backing only into next season...
Strategic Plan to operate. Does this mean lower league and part time .
Very worrying statements.

I wouldn't worry too much about that - these comments are for the going concern basis of the company and it only needs to look forward 12 months from the date of approval of the financial statement which is the exact period outline.There is no need to commit to anything longer in these financial statements.

Enzo wrote: ↑01 Apr 2023, 20:59 Good shout with Sturridge. Wonder if we could get a full eleven of historic loan stars?

GK - Michael Poke
LB - Ryan Dickson
CB - Steve Bould
CB - Mark Ellis
RB - Sam Sherring
LM - Liam Rosenior
CM - Danny Hollands
CM - Adam Randell
RM - Chris Zebroski
CF - Alan Lee
CF - Jason Roberts

Subs
Bryan McGlinchey
Guy Branston
Dean Sturridge
Kieffer Moore
Jake Robinson

happytorq wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 15:31 It's all very well saying that but until such time as there is more transparency, it's very hard to believe. Is the current budget lower than last years, and that of the previous year? We think so, but nobody knows for sure.

I don't think anybody truly expects him to keep throwing money at the situation, but it's been pretty much radio silence since he bought the club, and that's what makes people nervous. I wouldn't even be that upset if he came out and said "the budget has had to be lower this season because I've been spaffing 3/4 mil every year and that's unsustainable". That's something that everybody could understand, even if it would sting and require an require a recalibration of expectations.

Saying you're "fully committed" doesn't mean anything when the subsequent actions do nothing to affirm it. Hell, maybe the budget is enormous and we paid Dover £50k for Hanson and put him on a 4 year deal at two grand a week. At least it'd suggest some level of ambition (even if misguided, lol) - the point is that we don't know and given the sword of damocles that is the money owed to CO it's not that big of a leap to believe that's he's really ok with it going downhill.

I guess I don't know if I really believe that he's come in like Dick Dastardly twirling his moustache and going "mwuhahaaha I can drive the club into the ground and make fortunes!". Have no doubt that profit is what he came in for, and like I've said before that's not an issue for me if the footballing side is taken care of and the future of the club isn't on shaky ground.

Do any football clubs actively disclose their budgets? It sounds like a terrible idea, disclose you have a bigger budget and players and agents negotiate for higher salaries, say you have a smaller budget and players may decide to look elsewhere.

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