chunkygull wrote:sometimes these players who show all the exciting potential, later on have to change and adapt the way they play because of injuries they have suffered. but in most cases it is down to their club, coaching, team tactics and systems. does doing this to players really help produce results ?
It's because we've always been slightly suspicious of real talent, believing that 'working hard' brings more value to the team. The list of players that we've ruined is long and depressing. If any of the players below were born in Spain, or Holland, say, their talents would have recognised and nurtured.
Glen Hoddle
Matt Le Tissier
Joe Cole
Rodney Marsh
And these are just 4 that I thought of off the top of my head. It's criminal that a player like Joe Cole is touted as the next big thing, only for a big move to come with the proviso "and you have to learn to track back". It's or this exact reason that English players are terrified of failure, and that explains why the England team is usually bereft of any sort of imagination or guile.
You are my torquay, my only torquay, you make me happy when skies are grey, you'll never know, just, how much i love you, so don't take my torquay away.
(laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la, - laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la. - la,la,la,la,la, - la,la,la,la....).
hahahaha! I appear to have struck a nerve! I admit I'm not quite old enough to have seen Heskey at his peak (did he have a peak?) but if he had any kind of finishing instinct that surely couldn't have been lost - even if he became a target man battering ram. He always looked the most uncomfortable player going through on goal for me.
stevegull wrote:Are you lot the family of Emile Heskey?
no but credit where its due in his early career especially at leicester he was an absolute beast of a player showing lots of pace and ability, he was unplayable at times. the potential was there but like so many others it was stifled or coached out of him. confidence gets lost when you cant play the way that comes naturally to you, especially being a forward. eventually he was just a frustrating target man who couldnt get much right.
but was it his fault?
You are my torquay, my only torquay, you make me happy when skies are grey, you'll never know, just, how much i love you, so don't take my torquay away.
(laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la, - laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la. - la,la,la,la,la, - la,la,la,la....).
I do think that problem is also very common with good young and quick wingers.
So often players come through a youth system and hit the ground running by driving at defenders and generally getting the crowd on their feet. And then... after a period of coaching I assume - or maybe just a loss in confidence - they discover the safety of a backwards pass and then cease being the very player that made us so excited by them in the first place.
stevegull wrote:hahahaha! I appear to have struck a nerve! I admit I'm not quite old enough to have seen Heskey at his peak (did he have a peak?) but if he had any kind of finishing instinct that surely couldn't have been lost - even if he became a target man battering ram. He always looked the most uncomfortable player going through on goal for me.
Actually, to get an idea of just how good he was at times, you could do a lot worse than watching the replay of the 5-1 England game. His goal in that was pretty much what he spent most of his early career doing. It seems like something happened over the summer of 2002 and he just wasn't the same. (as I recall, Eriksson played him on the left wing at the 2002 World Cup. Maybe that's what started it)
It's weird how much confidence plays in how good a striker can be. You only have to look at Fernando Torres now; when he's through on goal, he just doesn't seem to that self belief - in his Liverpool days, you just knew he was going to score.
i dont know if anybody heard new fa chairman greg dykes speech about the state of english football. he is intending to set up a commision to investigate what has gone wrong with english football and why there is a lack of english talent.
asking 3 questions - why has this happened? - what can be done? - how to make changes?
they have been banging on about it on the radio for over 24 hours now. everybody seems to have a differing opinion. the blame is being put on various things ranging from the premier league, foreign players are cheaper, foreign players are better, managers not bringing through youth and buying cheap ready made foreign players, poor coaching, young players thinking they are billy big bollocks, the brand of football.
i would suggest it is a definite mixture of all those things. we are too obsessed for a start with young players height, pace and physical stature enabling the physicality side of the game and not enough on skills. this is about 35 years out of date.
the coaching system should be dismantled and started from scratch. there are people who have phoned in and said they have took coaching badges and even they dont feel the courses are adequate, they dont feel they have enough. many complained that to take any decent badges and progress it is way too expensive.
i have heard it on the radio many times from people with experience in the game, coaches at all levels, ex players, journo's, pundits etc, that many clubs and coaches knock almost every ounce of individuality, flair and skill out of players, it is all about systems and set ups, this type of play can be so negative. we have mentioned this earlier in the thread.
the premier league does not take all the blame as some are trying to suggest, there were many stats being bandied about that gave a clear view that england werent doing that great before the premier league came about. but its the nature of the beast that is hindering youth development and keeping youth out of premiership squads.
stories of owners/chairman interfering with team selection, managers being too worried to blood the youth because its a results driven business so the youth dont get brought through and developed, the clubs constantly buy ready made foreigners who have already been developed so the youth dont really get a look in and then they get released into the football wilderness.
the premier league clubs do seem to hoover up lots of young talent for academies, or any young player in the football league who shows a bit of promise. the trouble is they dont get a look in, or gain experience and often end up plummeting back down the leagues or on the football scrapheap.
there were many players mentioned yesterday who are supposed to be extremely talented but for whatever reason arent getting a look in, many believe they are good enough.
again its partly about managers and coaches being too worried about losing games rather than winning, not being bold or brave enough to try different things or not concentrating and working on the positives or long term success.
because somebody is born in countries like france, italy, spain, brazil, germany, holland, argentina or many african nations does that automatically make them better footballers, of course not! however it is their attitude, mentality, work ethic, football education, style, brand and COACHING. much is made of how our players arent comfortable with the ball, it is stressed that a lot of our players are unable to, or are uncomfortable recieving the ball in tight space or with an opponent near, this ball control fundamental should be compulsary surely. it is something all the top footballing nations players have in their locker.
if you cant lay a few passes into a forward or midfielders feet and ask them to hold the ball, turn away from trouble or continue the move when they have close attention then you are effectively down a player ot 2. in league 2 it might be a problem but for those at the top of the game it should be a doddle.
too many youth players in the top 2 divisions apparently have the wrong attitude, they are being paid fortunes before they have even done anything , they are given an easy ride before they have even got near the first team and may not get anywhere near the team at all.
apprenticeships arent like in the past because clubs are worried about upsetting the talented ones, therefore they are pampered and dont have the same respect or sense of achievement when they actually achieve something. the young players let it all go to their head thinking they have made it because nothing or no-one is keeping them grounded, they dont clean boots or tidy the ground or do chores at all anymore apparently. very quickly they think they are top dogs and have already made it, then they are more concerned with money, cars, jewellery and tatoos than their football.
short sightedness comes into play, not looking at the long term. england took some of the players on tour early in the summer who should have been playing for the under 21's. other nations put out there strongest side in the u21's euro tounament, they saw the benefit of giving the young players tournament experience.we dismiss these notions. we dont give this tournament much credibility or importance, when we are out its just oh well never mind. many successful national teams take it very seriously and have started their successes by winning the u21's tournament.
other national teams had friendlies in the summer and then released thier young players to play in the tournament after as well, ours did not. our players went on holiday. this is partly because of the national team butting heads with premier league managers. this sort of thing has to stop.
there have been ideas about rules for a minimum limit of home grown players in premier squads, which will never work, they can bring in somebody at a young age from anywhere and as long as they live here for a few years they will be classed as home grown.
the premier league wont change, but the fa can at least try with the football league. as a starting point i would suggest a 3 or at a push 5 foreigner rule, similar to how the european cup used to be. this way at least the championship will have plenty of english talent cutting their teeth and developing, they get the chance at least to show what they can do, whereas at the moment they are not. it could become a huge development level and players could then move to the premier league when they are actually ready for it.
i truly believe we have had and do have some very good players. if all these foreign players in the prem are that great then the english players that do break through have to be very, very, good. those at the top of the tree must have something. many feel a lot of them take a negative mentality or a mental block with them into the england set up though.
its almost like a fear descends upon them. they certainly are never given the chance in the england team to play their game. it always looks like the team dont play to their strengths, they are shackled and just dont give the same showing as they do for their club.
to be fair i really dont think we have picked the right person to be england manager for a long time, possibly since hoddle. i didnt really like him much, i really didnt like the way he treated gascoigne at the time, although now he says gazza was injured, never said that previously though. ego aside there are many who feel he was an outstanding coach who tried to make his teams play proper football. this is definitely missing from the england setup.
one thing i dont get is, greg dyke has come in giving it all that about changing things and setting up commisions to investigate whats wrong etc, fair play to him, but i would have thought a lot of it was blindingly obvious, it took a couple of hours on the radio for all sorts of people from fans to players and coaches to lay it bare and state so many problems that need addressing, every single one of them was correct.
also, what the hell have the likes of trevor brooking and gareth southgate been doing for the last few years.who will be a part of greg dykes commission, the usual suspects, the same old out of touch old farts it always is. but at least he is trying to do something.
the fa bang on about st georges park and how its got the best facillities and we will win the world cup and everything else because of it.
they spent millions that could have been spread around the game and used to improve facillities at all levels around the country and to subsidise and support training some actual top class coaches. facillities dont make good players, hard work, dedication, mental aptitude, talent and good coaching does.
anyway, listen to greg dyke, his heart is in the right place, he isnt wrong. he is asking everybody, what can we do?
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You are my torquay, my only torquay, you make me happy when skies are grey, you'll never know, just, how much i love you, so don't take my torquay away.
(laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la, - laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la. - la,la,la,la,la, - la,la,la,la....).
Ignore Dyke, it's just words. He'll come out with all the spiel, fail, get paid a feckin fortune and England will be none the wiser or better. It's nailed on and there is nothing anybody can do about it.
Believe it if it makes you feel better.
It is a huge gravy train, from Wembley to the Premier League, it is for suits to enjoy corporate hospitality on a regular basis and get paid handsomely. If they really gave a sh*t about the national team and had REAL ideas then they would out of a job because what England needs is something extreme to get them out of THIS hole and these people just aren't prepared to stand up and be counted. They all morph into one large testicular sack of gravy and drip gravy coated soundbites and grand plans onto a big plate from which England fans consume them with a large gullable baguette. It's really quite funny but at the same time, so tragic.
Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
Of course none of what I have posted is particularly helpful or constructive, there are numerous things that can be put into action to get the ball rolling into making England a great footy nation once more but action is exactly what is needed and not ideas or words. Decide on the best course of action Mr Dyke and then set about doing it - now.
Strangely enough it was Pope Gregory the 9th inviting me for drinks aboard his steam yacht, the saucy sue currently wintering in montego bay with the England cricket team and the Balanese Goddess of plenty.
i agree andy. thats what is infuriating, things could be done, but wont, its all talk. this commision will be total bollocks, the same old faces will be on it, instead of real football people.
a commission takes time and money, yesterday and today like i said there were many voices from the bottom to the top end of the football stratosphere giving their reasons for failure and what to do to fix things. all of it was pretty much spot on. you dont need a bull$h1t commission.
what have brooking, southgate and many others been doing for all these years.
the premier league arent totally to blame but why should they give a monkeys.
the fa and especially the national team set up is everything you said.
we are supposed to have the most exciting league in the world but we cetainly dont have a majority of the cream of world football playing in it, english or foreign.
we are the most expensive football nation, from watching it live, to the not fit for purpose coaching badges.
You are my torquay, my only torquay, you make me happy when skies are grey, you'll never know, just, how much i love you, so don't take my torquay away.
(laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la, - laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la. - la,la,la,la,la, - la,la,la,la....).
thats the ironic thing, this was mentioned many times yesterday, he even mentioned it himself and said something along the lines of when the premier league was conceived he never envisioned what it would become or where the english game would be today.
many people mentioned that failsafes and provisions should have been made from the start to make sure the english game was nurtured and did not become corrupt and saturated with foreign owners, coaches/managers and players.
but as usual its too little too late, taking action after the horse has bolted.
You are my torquay, my only torquay, you make me happy when skies are grey, you'll never know, just, how much i love you, so don't take my torquay away.
(laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la, - laa, laa, - laaaa, - la, la. - la,la,la,la,la, - la,la,la,la....).
I remember there used to be a rule that said a football team had to have at least 5 players from the Home countries in it, but that got struck down by the European courts as 'illegal'. Something like that would at least have meant every team would have a british player there.
