A couple of months in

rooster · Post by **rooster** » 01 Nov 2013, 11:35

Fair point re last season and I accept that he inherited what was there and had to make do with it, my only concern was that he didn't particularly inspire me with those 14 games and whether we would have gone down either way will never be known. I was trying to say that as previous poster said if after 19 games we are routed to the bottom of the league what happens next, is that not a fair crack or do we put up and waste another season as anyone else coming in will be in the same position as he was when he started and then the roller coaster goes on.............i can see persuasive arguments both ways.......

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 01 Nov 2013, 13:05

rooster wrote:Fair point re last season and I accept that he inherited what was there and had to make do with it, my only concern was that he didn't particularly inspire me with those 14 games and whether we would have gone down either way will never be known. I was trying to say that as previous poster said if after 19 games we are routed to the bottom of the league what happens next, is that not a fair crack or do we put up and waste another season as anyone else coming in will be in the same position as he was when he started and then the roller coaster goes on.............i can see persuasive arguments both ways.......

A perfectly valid point, but then, I am forced to ask again, what were you expecting?

He came in to a squad which was utter tripe, put together by a man who could only have been drunk as he did so. Chris McPhee, CHRIS McPHEE, for Christ's sake! If a Force India rolls around and finishes 24th out of 24 cars every Grand Prix, it's not really realistic to get Sebastian Vettel in for the last few race and expect to be challenging for the Constructors' Championship. It's unreasonable, in my book, to expect anything other than finishing 22nd out of 24 cars, which is exactly what Knill managed (or there abouts) and exactly what any other competent manager in the world would have managed.

If we are near the bottom after 19 games, then we will need to look at why. What some seem to have trouble grasping is that, although it's a results business, there is so much more to be considered than our League position after 19 games that it wouldn't be as straight forward as saying, "if we're 20th or below, then Knill gets the boot, if we're 19th or above, he stays." Football (and business and life in general) is NEVER that simple. Everyone knows that, it just seems that common sense and general knowledge go out of the window when we start discussing football.

Matt.

jonnyfive · Post by **jonnyfive** » 01 Nov 2013, 13:37

Wodge, thanks for inviting me to re-read your post. Perhaps if you yourself read the words in my post, rather than just the number 14, you'd understand that I was referring to last season's 14 games.

Cheers

jonnyfive · Post by **jonnyfive** » 01 Nov 2013, 13:41

rooster wrote:Fair point re last season and I accept that he inherited what was there and had to make do with it, my only concern was that he didn't particularly inspire me with those 14 games and whether we would have gone down either way will never be known. I was trying to say that as previous poster said if after 19 games we are routed to the bottom of the league what happens next, is that not a fair crack or do we put up and waste another season as anyone else coming in will be in the same position as he was when he started and then the roller coaster goes on.............i can see persuasive arguments both ways.......

There you go Wodge. When one reads the words, it helps in understanding the meaning ;0)

wodger of awabia · Post by **wodger of awabia** » 01 Nov 2013, 13:52

ferrarilover wrote: A perfectly valid point, but then, I am forced to ask again, what were you expecting?

He came in to a squad which was utter tripe, put together by a man who could only have been drunk as he did so. Chris McPhee, CHRIS McPHEE, for Christ's sake! If a Force India rolls around and finishes 24th out of 24 cars every Grand Prix, it's not really realistic to get Sebastian Vettel in for the last few race and expect to be challenging for the Constructors' Championship. It's unreasonable, in my book, to expect anything other than finishing 22nd out of 24 cars, which is exactly what Knill managed (or there abouts) and exactly what any other competent manager in the world would have managed.

If we are near the bottom after 19 games, then we will need to look at why. What some seem to have trouble grasping is that, although it's a results business, there is so much more to be considered than our League position after 19 games that it wouldn't be as straight forward as saying, "if we're 20th or below, then Knill gets the boot, if we're 19th or above, he stays." Football (and business and life in general) is NEVER that simple. Everyone knows that, it just seems that common sense and general knowledge go out of the window when we start discussing football.

Matt.

Matt
Chris McPhee was signed by Ling as a "utility forward ". He was signed on the back of a very successful ( 17 goal ) season at Kidderminster Harriers in the BSP, you will remember that they were very pi##ed off losing him!

Do you think that Hawley ( Knills best "striker " ) would get 17 goals in the Conference?

How many games would you give Knill to turn it around 29, 39 ?

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 01 Nov 2013, 13:56

ferrarilover wrote: A perfectly valid point, but then, I am forced to ask again, what were you expecting?

He came in to a squad which was utter tripe, put together by a man who could only have been drunk as he did so. Chris McPhee, CHRIS McPHEE,

If we are near the bottom after 19 games, then we will need to look at why. What some seem to have trouble grasping is that, although it's a results business, there is so much more to be considered than our League position after 19 games that it wouldn't be as straight forward as saying, "if we're 20th or below, then Knill gets the boot, if we're 19th or above, he stays." Football (and business and life in general) is NEVER that simple. Everyone knows that, it just seems that common sense and general knowledge go out of the window when we start discussing football.
Matt.

Chris McPhee was playing for Salisbury last season, and still is. The previous season we reached the Play Offs and in my opinion McPhee proved to be a useful squad player. I am sure you're right when you say a manager has a myriad or responsibilities but his number one priority is to send out a team on a Saturday afternoon, or a Tuesday evening, that will be organised and compete. Up until last Saturday, Knill has mostly failed to do this. As Hector rightly posted - I will accept from those the argument that we maybe need to wait, in the hope that by Christmas he has started to turn things around. If he hasn't by then, then he is never going to and should go.

If we are where we are now going into January, and actually I don't think we will be, the Board will have to look at changes. There would be no need for a new manager coming in to bring in new players because we have a good squad at this level. The team just needs motivation or organisation or something. Yes, it would cost to pay off Knill and maybe Chris Brass, but the possible alternative - relegation to the Conference - would be much more damaging to the club. Anyway, let's just seen what happens between now and the end of the year, shall we? A win against Bury would be a start.

wodger of awabia · Post by **wodger of awabia** » 01 Nov 2013, 14:00

jonnyfive wrote:Wodge, thanks for inviting me to re-read your post. Perhaps if you yourself read the words in my post, rather than just the number 14, you'd understand that I was referring to last season's 14 games.

Cheers

Sorry, but you could made it clearer by adding "last season"

wodger of awabia · Post by **wodger of awabia** » 01 Nov 2013, 14:19

tomogull wrote: Chris McPhee was playing for Salisbury last season, and still is. The previous season we reached the Play Offs and in my opinion McPhee proved to be a useful squad player. I am sure you're right when you say a manager has a myriad or responsibilities but his number one priority is to send out a team on a Saturday afternoon, or a Tuesday evening, that will be organised and compete. Up until last Saturday, Knill has mostly failed to do this. As Hector rightly posted - I will accept from those the argument that we maybe need to wait, in the hope that by Christmas he has started to turn things around. If he hasn't by then, then he is never going to and should go.

If we are where we are now going into January, and actually I don't think we will be, the Board will have to look at changes. There would be no need for a new manager coming in to bring in new players because we have a good squad at this level. The team just needs motivation or organisation or something. Yes, it would cost to pay off Knill and maybe Chris Brass, but the possible alternative - relegation to the Conference - would be much more damaging to the club. Anyway, let's just seen what happens between now and the end of the year, shall we? A win against Bury would be a start.

I don't see that Knill has to be paid off with a lump sum, as long as he is paid according to the terms of his contract, he can't complain. In other words put him on "gardening leave" whilst he is serving his notice.
The new manager might be quite happy with Brass as his assistant. When the board at Bristol Rovers sacked Buckle, the new manager Mark Mc Ghee was told that Sean North would be his assistant.

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 01 Nov 2013, 14:25

Constructive dismissal prevents that, sadly.

I like that I said all that, and the only gripe people had wad that I had a jovial bash at Chris McPhee, who is a man, you'll recall, for whom I always had the utmost respect.

Matt.

Post by **Dave** » 01 Nov 2013, 22:07

wodger of awabia wrote: Ever heard of free transfers Matt?

Not sure. Are doing this as a wind up, come on you know as well as anyone, there is not such a thing, as a truly 'free' transfer.

wodger of awabia · Post by **wodger of awabia** » 02 Nov 2013, 09:00

forevertufc wrote: Not sure. Are doing this as a wind up, come on you know as well as anyone, there is not such a thing, as a truly 'free' transfer.

Not many things in life are absolutely free, including loan signings.

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 02 Nov 2013, 17:09

Our loanees are as close to free as they could possibly be. They're a damn sight more free than anyone else we've had in the last few years, and possibly before.

Matt.

Dockers Pal · Post by **Dockers Pal** » 03 Nov 2013, 00:02

Under Knill three propsitions
1. All loanees play if fit and not suspended - this provides the lending clubs confidence that there players will get the work experience, and game time they need, and this builds Knills credibility with bigger clubs and
2. As the loanees are young and inexperienced and at least while they make up 4/11 of our team then we will play our most experienced players (Mansell and Nicholson) and
3. We will avoid relegation but anything more than that will be a bonus and the fans will put up with it and the loanees will get experience of playing in front of sullen fans.

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 03 Nov 2013, 00:22

I mentioned a while ago that I was reading Garry Nelson's excellent book about his time as player-manager here. As usual, I have half a dozen books on the go at once, so I'm only just at the point where we're actually playing matches. What has struck me is the number of times that players are being sent out to play while not 100% fit. Of course, the supporters, opposition and press would know nothing of this either before or after a game. I don't wonder, you know, whether some of Knill's (and many, many other managers) decisions might not be based on facts of which we are simply not aware.
Would anyone really be surprised to discover that Pearce had gone to Knill and said he wasn't quite right? Perhaps DD saw something in a test result which concerned him?
Supergulls is a man who knows more than most here, but, without wishing to cast doubt upon a chap I happen to like, it is quite possible that the club have a policy of keeping niggles and fitness concerns 'in house'.

I could be wrong, it could just be that Knill is insane or hates black people or is secretly sleeping with O'connor, but that would seem less plausible than a bloke with a heart condition not feeling up to 90 minutes elite level sport.

Matt.

Post by **exilegull** » 03 Nov 2013, 00:33

Totally agree Matt - Pearce was back playing first team football not long after he'd been in hospital with his career in jeopardy. While I think it is unlikely KP asked not to start it seems totally reasonable that Knill has not started him to enable him some time for a fuller recovery. Also with KP only having just returned from serious sickness and Downes only having just returned from surgery, is it wise to start with both your central defenders in uncertain condition?

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