Torquay United v Southend United - 14/12/13

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 10 Dec 2013, 19:01

AustrianAndyGull wrote:Totally disagree and times it by 6 billion arcadia. :~D

In a season where we have strived in embarrassing vain for consistency and good performances it would be disturbing and lunacy to drop the one bloke who has given us this.

Fair enough if games were tight at 0-0 and Ricey kept on having the odd costly mistake here and there then perhaps re-evaluate the goalkeeping situation but so far this season we're getting comprehensively outplayed and beaten most weeks because the 10 in front of him for whatever reason aren't doing what he is. And you want to drop him? Crazy.

As I've said before, Rice isn't a problem at the moment. We could have Buffon in goal stood in the middle with Casillas at one end also and Hart at the other and you know what? We'd STILL concede loads of goals.

Rice has done well at shot stopping but he does not give confidence to the defence and in the last home game Downes and Rice had no understanding where Rice did not help him. Poke is the better keeper.

Post by **bixieupnorth** » 10 Dec 2013, 19:30

southend are clear favourites to inflict more misery on us at the weekend, we all know we COULD click, and play as well as it sounded v argyle, but most likely we will play like the team of strangers as we did at scunny

with no sign of a ticket discount i'd imagine there'd be a shade over 2,000 there, what with it being cold and the penultimate saturday before xmas. i can only see a defeat 1-2 or 1-3 and doomed to see the new year in in the bottom two at least

AustrianAndyGull · Post by **AustrianAndyGull** » 10 Dec 2013, 19:33

Agree that Poke is the better keeper although I find him quiet vocally in games and yes I do agree that Rice often causes problems for the back 4 with indecision but on the overall balance of the season then I'd keep him in. Like I said before, if we were throwing points away on a regular basis BECAUSE of these flaws in Martin's game then yes, I would like to see Poke re-introduced to the 11 but we are where we are because of poor defending, poor creativity, poor workrate, poor distribution and poor finishing from those outfield players and not because of Rice. In all the games I've seen him this season he has been blameless for just about every goal conceded and consistently he has kept out a cricket score so I take what you are saying arcadia and kind of agreeing with you to some extent but I just think Rice is thoroughly deserving of retaining his place for now.

Bix, I also fear a tiny crowd on Saturday although a weekend free of a certain defeat has been refreshing and might tempt a few more to come along in the hope of seeing a rejuvenated set of players. It is only hope though, desperate hope.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 10 Dec 2013, 23:14

Kit_robin wrote:Rice has been relatively poor since the York game. His shot stopping has been ok, but he's let a few past I think a better keeper would have saved because often his starting position is very poor. He seems to lack anticipation and awareness of the game in front of him. He also seems to have gone back to dithering on his line a bit more recently.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. He obviously has a great attitude and to improve to the level he is now (a competent league 2 understudy) from where he was in his first spell (conference south standard) is a fantastic achievement. However the better the goalkeeper the better the defensive unit as a whole, and in my opinion choosing Rice over Poke is making our backline's job more difficult.

Everyone seems to agree that poke is a better goalkeeper, irrespective of how well they feel rice has done- it therefore seems silly to me that he isn't playing.

its quite obvious you know nothing about goalkeeping.

Kit_robin · Post by **Kit_robin** » 10 Dec 2013, 23:25

SuperNickyWroe wrote: its quite obvious you know nothing about goalkeeping.

It's quite obvious you haven't seen him play much this season.

Post by **Dave** » 10 Dec 2013, 23:55

I fully agree with the view point, that Martin hasn't been the problem, in fact far from it he has been one of the few bright lights this season for us, however I would change it now for reasons already stated.

As far as goalkeeping is concerned, seen it written a few times by different people and not just about Ricey often amuses me, how can a goalkeeper be a decent, good, ok shot stopper yet his start positioning be poor.

For a goalkeeper to make the save and Ricey has not been found wanting at all with his shot stopping his start positioning must be right, the two are linked, for a keeper to make the save 9 times out of 10 it's because his start position was spot on, if it wasn't 9 times out of ten the ball would end up in the net.

jonnyfive · Post by **jonnyfive** » 11 Dec 2013, 00:08

SNW; a slight like that really bears justification...

Rice has done okay, better than anyone expected in fact, but Poke is our number one. He is better than Rice in all aspects of keeping.

If Gerrard returns from injury, you don't continue with Cleverley or Milner.

Why should we wait until Rice throws 3 in before restoring a superior player?

ferrarilover · Post by **ferrarilover** » 11 Dec 2013, 01:28

Someone find me three goals we have conceded this station for having Rice in net over Poke.

Matt.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 11 Dec 2013, 06:05

There are plenty enough, Matt.

Poke is the better keeper but although he may be fit enough to play he still needs to show match fitness and a sharpness to his game. I'm not sure he's done enough to prove that yet or that Ricey has wobbled enough for Poke to be given a chance to reclaim the No 1 spot.

Kit_robin · Post by **Kit_robin** » 11 Dec 2013, 07:53

forevertufc wrote:I fully agree with the view point, that Martin hasn't been the problem, in fact far from it he has been one of the few bright lights this season for us, however I would change it now for reasons already stated.

As far as goalkeeping is concerned, seen it written a few times by different people and not just about Ricey often amuses me, how can a goalkeeper be a decent, good, ok shot stopper yet his start positioning be poor.

For a goalkeeper to make the save and Ricey has not been found wanting at all with his shot stopping his start positioning must be right, the two are linked, for a keeper to make the save 9 times out of 10 it's because his start position was spot on, if it wasn't 9 times out of ten the ball would end up in the net.

Take his much lauded save from the second half free kick against Plymouth. Rice dived acrobatically to his right to rip the ball over the bar. On the face of ot a really great save.

However WHY did he have to dive so far to tip a ball that was in no way to the corner of the goal? If you were at the game you would have seen rice set his wall up to cover his left hand post, and then proceeded to stand DIRECTLY BEHIND SAID WALL in the left hand side of the goal. EitherRice is some sort of GK genius adopting a never before seen tactic, or he should have followed every other goalkeeper in history by standing, at the very least, central. The ball pretty much goes down the middle, and if rice had been where he should have been he would have had an easy save to make. As it was he has to really on his natural shot stopping talent to fly across his goal to make up for his positional error.

Bobby O was a great example of how positioning is key in GKs ability. If you think back he actually made very few spectacular saves at full stretch, precisely because his anticipation and positioning were so good that it often looked like players were deliberately shooting at him. That's why he's worth hundreds of thousands of pounds ad rice is a competent league 2 bench warmer.

Gullscorer · Post by **Gullscorer** » 11 Dec 2013, 08:55

If Southend are reading this thread they must be loving it..

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 11 Dec 2013, 09:12

Kit_robin wrote: It's quite obvious you haven't seen him play much this season.

and your point is?

I take on board the comments on here from posters and I would say that most see Martin Rice as the best player this season so far.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 11 Dec 2013, 09:18

jonnyfive wrote:SNW; a slight like that really bears justification...

Rice has done okay, better than anyone expected in fact, but Poke is our number one. He is better than Rice in all aspects of keeping.

If Gerrard returns from injury, you don't continue with Cleverley or Milner.

Why should we wait until Rice throws 3 in before restoring a superior player?

justification?

as i have just said the majority of posters on here would vouch for that.

poke is the better keeper - but on performances of ricey he cant be replaced until poke is 100% fit - and whos to say then that he will be straight back in?

whos to say he will?

hes managed not to do it yet.

Post by **Dave** » 11 Dec 2013, 09:28

Kit_robin wrote: Take his much lauded save from the second half free kick against Plymouth. Rice dived acrobatically to his right to rip the ball over the bar. On the face of ot a really great save.

However WHY did he have to dive so far to tip a ball that was in no way to the corner of the goal? If you were at the game you would have seen rice set his wall up to cover his left hand post, and then proceeded to stand DIRECTLY BEHIND SAID WALL in the left hand side of the goal. EitherRice is some sort of GK genius adopting a never before seen tactic, or he should have followed every other goalkeeper in history by standing, at the very least, central. The ball pretty much goes down the middle, and if rice had been where he should have been he would have had an easy save to make. As it was he has to really on his natural shot stopping talent to fly across his goal to make up for his positional error.

Bobby O was a great example of how positioning is key in GKs ability. If you think back he actually made very few spectacular saves at full stretch, precisely because his anticipation and positioning were so good that it often looked like players were deliberately shooting at him. That's why he's worth hundreds of thousands of pounds ad rice is a competent league 2 bench warmer.

Yes was at the Plymouth game season ticket holder, reading your posts wondered whether you might be a keeper or maybe a keeper coach, however reading the highlighted bit is conclusive proof that you're not a keeper coach, if you're a keeper badly coached indeed.

personally do not claim to be an expert, however seen keeper coaching delivered by our own Kenny Veysey, also Jay Gibbs former youth keeper coach with a number of professional clubs, and taken a lot of advice of Jimmy Allen, former Swindon keeper who I am lucky enough to know personally, opinions will differ between keepers and coach's.

Where and how a wall is set, and the position of the keeper depends on two factors, one where the free kick is, and two, the keeper himself, many keepers will take up a position that works for them.

If a free kick is central, you should be seeing a wall set to cover one side of the goal, and keeper take up a position slightly of centre to cover the other side, if a free kick is on the angle, you mostly would see the wall set on the same angle covering the near post, and the keeper taking up a position covering the far post, so yes stood behind the wall.

Can't comment of the Plymouth free kick, sadly done a few n/shifts since then and do not remember it. There are at least 2 member's of this site who can speak with authority on this subject, interesting to know their thoughts.

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 11 Dec 2013, 10:59

AustrianAndyGull wrote:Agree that Poke is the better keeper although I find him quiet vocally in games and yes I do agree that Rice often causes problems for the back 4 with indecision but on the overall balance of the season then I'd keep him in. Like I said before, if we were throwing points away on a regular basis BECAUSE of these flaws in Martin's game then yes, I would like to see Poke re-introduced to the 11 but we are where we are because of poor defending, poor creativity, poor workrate, poor distribution and poor finishing from those outfield players and not because of Rice. In all the games I've seen him this season he has been blameless for just about every goal conceded and consistently he has kept out a cricket score so I take what you are saying arcadia and kind of agreeing with you to some extent but I just think Rice is thoroughly deserving of retaining his place for now.

Bix, I also fear a tiny crowd on Saturday although a weekend free of a certain defeat has been refreshing and might tempt a few more to come along in the hope of seeing a rejuvenated set of players. It is only hope though, desperate hope.

The only reason Rice is player of the season, is he is in the game more because the side is not doing very well and he stands out because he makes a save. In all probobility Poke would have saved these shots as well. There is more to goalkeeping than shot stopping, taking crosses and talking are important as well. If we were winning and the defence was playing well I would have kept Rice in but that is not the case.

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