The Blame Game

[Fonda]

So it seems now is the time for recriminations and accusations of blame. But where does the fault really lie for our current plight?

Hargreaves is the man in charge, and has completely failed to re-invigorate the playing squad in the way that we all hoped and many expected he would. So it’s his fault isn’t it?

But it was Knill that built the majority of this squad, and the evident apathy within it, so many will maintain that he is the biggest culprit.

Others will point the finger at this group of players, suggesting that there is enough quality within the squad to be more than competitive in this division, and they simply haven’t put in enough graft.

And yet more will suggest the consortium in charge of the club is completely culpable, for focussing their energies on none football matters and neglecting the playing squad.

Of course all these people are culpable to an extent. Mistakes have been made from top to bottom that have contributed to our demise. But arguing about who is most to blame is pointless and isn’t going to help. There is a massive elephant in the room (or rather not in the room). The true route of all evil. Dirty cash. We don’t have any, and increasingly, even at this level, you can’t compete without it.

People will use Accrington as an example of why tiny budgets can compete – but they are one of a decreasing number of exceptions, and I’d hazard a guess their time will come – sooner rather than later. It can certainly be argued that they’ve managed the budget they do have, better than us. But everything finds its level eventually. We are realistically about to find ours, and I don’t think it’ll be long before the likes of Accrington and Dagenham find theirs again too.

Simply, unless there is massive investment (such as at Doncaster for example), teams such as ours can only compete for so long, with the odds stacked so totally against us. It’s stating the obvious, but many seem to have overlooked it – if you can’t afford players as good as those that other clubs have, you’re going to struggle.

So in my opinion the true fault lies with the apathetic population of Torquay (or Torbay in fact). Our club simply can’t support a league team with the income it generates. Could the club have done more to entice greater support? It faces continued criticism that it doesn’t do enough. But the public of Torbay know the club is there. I’m very much of the opinion you can’t create an interest that doesn’t exist. No amount of flyers will get me to a rugby match, and people who don’t like football simply won’t want to go and watch football. They’ve tried incentives (such as the half-season tickets), I wonder how much take-up there was on that? They can only do so much. There isn’t enough interest and for that reason the harsh reality is, we’re going to end up where we deserve to be.

So don’t blame the managers, players or owners. Not completely at least. The fault lies in the apathy of the local population and it has long been so.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Good post Fonda and agree with every point.

It doesn't matter who is to blame now. We'll all have our opinions and we won't all agree. I suggest we forget about this season now and hope that it all works out over the summer whatever division we are in. If we blame the players what good will it do now? If we blame the managers what good will it do now? If we blame the board what good will it do now? If we blame the fans what good will it do now?

I want to come back after the summer wanting to go and watch Torquay games once more and actually being entertained now and again. If it means the conference then that's fine by me. TUFC has found it's level and it isn't league 2. Sure we have a smattering of reasonable players but they alone can't keep us up.

I think teams like Accrington will eventually drop, it's inevitable. You are right. Maybe we have become as small a team as they are and we just have to accept it. In the past 8 or 9 years or so we have become a yo-yo club after many many years as an established league club. Times are changing and we can't keep up with them.

I'm tired of looking for answers although I must say that in recent weeks, months after Knill had left, our players still look shocking. I've seen 4 games I think now under Hargreaves and I'm not blaming him either but for whatever reason we have played worse stuff than under Knill. It just feels like no matter who comes in or how ever many players we add we just cannot shake off the rot. To survive we have needed a marked increase in quality, performance levels and results than we were getting previously and bar the odd good win these requirements have not been met.

No blame, just sadness, resignation and closure. This season is dead for me and I now thoroughly look forward to next season to give my support once more. No point in throwing good money after bad following this set of players around the country when they give nothing back. I missed the wins at Pompey and Dagenham and that means out of about 15 or so games this season I have only seen us win twice and each and every game I saw being complete and utter garbage. Even the wins.

So the blame game will always continue to rumble and people will still fall out over it but even if there is blame, there is nothing that can be done about it now.

[hector]

You cannot blame people, who are not interested in football or have no affiliation for TUFC, or those not willing to pay £17+ to watch a team that never wins. The 2500 is fairly standard for a club of our size and the performance it gives. The likes of Accrington, Burton, Rochdale, Bury, Morecambe, Hartlepool, York, Dagenham, Mansfield, Fleetwood, Stevenage amongst others, would get similar or less after the recent times we have had.

We can and have supported a league team, largely for almost 90 years. Not a very good one, one that struggles but one nevertheless that need not be struggling like we are today.

Like you suggest, I think the likes of Accrington, Morecambe will eventually slip back into the Conference (I suspect Accrington will come down with us this year) but whether the Conference is our natural level (when for the most part of a century, it hasn't been) it is difficult to say. Less than two years ago, when we looked like we get automatic promotion to League 1 (until Ling's team ran out of steam), nobody would have been suggesting that the Conference was our natural place. More than likely, most would have agreed - had we gone up - that League 1 was a bit above us, but that League 2 was where we were comfortable. It is all relative to how things are going.

If we go down and do the same as Hereford for a few seasons, or Lincoln, some will come on here say perhaps Conference South and part-time football is our true level, yet if we go down and perform like we did last time, it will vindicate those who suggest we are a bit too good for the Conference and League 2 is about right.

So in my view, because I think we are a standard League 2 club, it is the decisions that have been made that put us in this mess. Just bad, bad choices have been made by directors, in the managers appointed and the managers in teams they have picked and signings that they have made. To suggest the people of Torbay have let the club down is missing the point.

That could include people like my Mum, with no interest in football, wish the club well but wouldn't want to watch. The fact that the club has not managed to attract the legions of northerners who come down supporting Liverpool or Manchester United is hardly surprising.

The club have yo-yoed for the last 30 years. Relegation battles and promotion campaigns but nothing successful has ever been sustained, so it was never going to allow a bigger supporter base to flourish. Those who may be persuaded when the team is doing well, will soon go away again when it reverts to form. Even myself, I have been watching for 35 years but I'd happily not bother now.

Is that therefore my fault amongst others that the team would struggle because I no longer wish to spend money I can ill-afford on something that just makes me feel even more frustrated. Usually when people spend money, it is in the hope that they will feel better about it afterwards. Spending it on Torquay United just makes people poorer and angrier at the end of the experience.

For the cost of watching Torquay, I could watch 3 films at my local cinema...7-9 hours of something that takes your mind of the everyday. I could enjoy a nice meal, I could buy a few DVDs or CDs, a shirt, enjoy a few pints, I could buy the children some toys, pay a months broadband, clothe a village in Africa - but no, instead, I spend it watching the most mindless crap of football, in a soulless, empty mausoleum of a football ground watching players who don't even really play for the club - an endless succession of them on loan - have seen the team win TWICE since last April.

Tell me, what is so enticing for even the most loyal of supporters, let alone this 'mythical apathetic public of South Devon' to waste their money and time on that? The club get the gates it deserves.

[exiledgull]

I work in facts and figures so lets have a look at the facts.

Knills last 5 games WWDLL = 7 points
Background information: We lost Marquis after the W, and struggled since then as Stockley was also injured.

Hargreaves Last 5 games LLLDL = 1 Point

To the people that said about being Knills squad. Since Hargreaves has arrived he has signed the following:
Shaun Cooper ,Joss Labadie ,Stockley (Resigned) ,Showumni ,Wilkinson, O Brien, Stevens , O'Connor (resigned) and Rudge

Also CH had the financial clout to recall back Lathrope and had Harding back fit which AK didn't have. So in total 11 further options that AK had. He could have got rid of O Conoor and Stockley so they effectually are classes as his signing. He has nearly replaced the whole team, and yet plays Knills players? Benyon back in starting line up?. Our goal last week from Harding to benyon and goal. CH should be thankful Knill has left him with some decent players, as the players we have brought in since then haven't been up to scratch.

The blame lies with Thea for getting rid of AK too soon, he was just turning it around and we pulled the trigger. We then employed someone who was trying to get the old manager the sack from the Chesterfield game at home, we then give him funds that we didn't the old manager. He then comes in with extra finances and fails to bring in decent players. AK was brought in same time last year to keep us up and was successful. He needed to freshen the team up again and this time they said let CH do that. Terrible choice.

I blame Thea then CH then AK.

We are destined now to be obsolete in the football world.

However when we read the Blame game CH seems to be a master.

Few weeks ago: Team is good enough to stay up
Then Takes Charge: Still good enough
Few Defeats: Knills Fault
Last week : Finances
This week: Should have had a pen etc etc.

[AustrianAndyGull]

I agreed with Fonda because even before we were this bad people would still not come and watch us and even when we were in league 1 the crowds weren't great. When things are as bad as they are now and the economic climate is different to what it was 10 years ago then I can now fully understand why people won't come and watch this tripe anymore. One or two I'm sure will come on and say I have always banged on about how we should go and support at all costs and I have, the straw that broke the camels back came yesterday. I went to the home game v Accy, spent cash in the shop and stuff and went yesterday and I've not seen two worse performances for a long time. I've spent loads this season as I'm sure many of you have, in excess of a thousand quid and got absolutely nothing in return. I got an enjoyable second half at Northampton and that is it. It's just not worth it anymore unless I can see each and every player trying and deserving the support. I'm not saying they need do it every week but there has to be a point when enough is enough and that sadly came for me yesterday.

Both Fonda has a point when highlighting poor support even when we were doing ok but Hector does too and I just think we shouldn't blame the fans anymore and I also think promotions to get in new fans don't work long term and we should just forget about these fans. They will come when they want as they always have. For now it is a real battle for the club to retain the fans who are used to going each week or whenever they can because I reckon quite a few can't justify it anymore.

[hector]

I work in facts and figures so lets have a look at the facts.

Knills last 5 games WWDLL = 7 points
Background information: We lost Marquis after the W, and struggled since then as Stockley was also injured.

Hargreaves Last 5 games LLLDL = 1 Point

To the people that said about being Knills squad. Since Hargreaves has arrived he has signed the following:
Shaun Cooper ,Joss Labadie ,Stockley (Resigned) ,Showumni ,Wilkinson, O Brien, Stevens and Rudge

Also CH had the financial clout to recall back Lathrope and had Harding back fit which AK didn't have. So in total 10 further options that AK had. He has nearly replaced the whole team, and yet plays Knills players? Benyon back in starting line up?. Our goal last week from Harding to benyon and goal. CH should be thankful Knill has left him with some decent players, as the players we have brought in since then haven't been up to scratch.

The blame lies with Thea for getting rid of AK too soon, he was just turning it around and we pulled the trigger. We then employed someone who was trying to get the old manager the sack from the Chesterfield game at home, we then give him funds that we didn't the old manager. He then comes in with extra finances and fails to bring in decent players. AK was brought in same time last year to keep us up and was successful. He needed to freshen the team up again and this time they said let CH do that. Terrible choice.

I blame Thea then CH then AK.

We are destined now to be obsolete in the football world.

However when we read the Blame game CH seems to be a master.

Few weeks ago: Team is good enough to stay up
Then Takes Charge: Still good enough
Few Defeats: Knills Fault
Last week : Finances
This week: Should have had a pen etc etc.

Nonsense - the blame lies with the club for not getting rid of Knill soon enough. It was obvious as early as September that this was going to happen under his management. The club may have jumped to early by plumping for an inexperienced rookie and can take its responsibility for that as well. Likewise, when the misguided clamour for Knill to be given the job over Ling because he apparently 'saved' us from relegation, the club erred by not undergoing a proper recruitment process and taking the lazy/easy option and going for Knill because they thought the fans would like it - I suspect the same reasons are what made them go for CH.

I find this rather swift revisionist rewriting of Alan Knill's time bizarre. He was shocking. It was never going to work for him here, it didn't and he was on his way.

[AustrianAndyGull]

I agreed with Fonda because even before we were this bad people would still not come and watch us and even when we were in league 1 the crowds weren't great. When things are as bad as they are now and the economic climate is different to what it was 10 years ago then I can now fully understand why people won't come and watch this tripe anymore. One or two I'm sure will come on and say I have always banged on about how we should go and support at all costs and I have, the straw that broke the camels back came yesterday. I went to the home game v Accy, spent cash in the shop and stuff and went yesterday and I've not seen two worse performances for a long time. I've spent loads this season as I'm sure many of you have, in excess of a thousand quid and got absolutely nothing in return. I got an enjoyable second half at Northampton and that is it. It's just not worth it anymore unless I can see each and every player trying and deserving the support. I'm not saying they need do it every week but there has to be a point when enough is enough and that sadly came for me yesterday.

Both Fonda has a point when highlighting poor support even when we were doing ok but Hector does too and I just think we shouldn't blame the fans anymore and I also think promotions to get in new fans don't work long term and we should just forget about these fans. They will come when they want as they always have. For now it is a real battle for the club to retain the fans who are used to going each week or whenever they can because I reckon quite a few can't justify it anymore.

[hector]

I work in facts and figures so lets have a look at the facts.

Knills last 5 games WWDLL = 7 points
Background information: We lost Marquis after the W, and struggled since then as Stockley was also injured.

Hargreaves Last 5 games LLLDL = 1 Point

To the people that said about being Knills squad. Since Hargreaves has arrived he has signed the following:
Shaun Cooper ,Joss Labadie ,Stockley (Resigned) ,Showumni ,Wilkinson, O Brien, Stevens , O'Connor (resigned) and Rudge

Also CH had the financial clout to recall back Lathrope and had Harding back fit which AK didn't have. So in total 11 further options that AK had. He could have got rid of O Conoor and Stockley so they effectually are classes as his signing. He has nearly replaced the whole team, and yet plays Knills players? Benyon back in starting line up?. Our goal last week from Harding to benyon and goal. CH should be thankful Knill has left him with some decent players, as the players we have brought in since then haven't been up to scratch.

The blame lies with Thea for getting rid of AK too soon, he was just turning it around and we pulled the trigger. We then employed someone who was trying to get the old manager the sack from the Chesterfield game at home, we then give him funds that we didn't the old manager. He then comes in with extra finances and fails to bring in decent players. AK was brought in same time last year to keep us up and was successful. He needed to freshen the team up again and this time they said let CH do that. Terrible choice.

I blame Thea then CH then AK.

We are destined now to be obsolete in the football world.

However when we read the Blame game CH seems to be a master.

Few weeks ago: Team is good enough to stay up
Then Takes Charge: Still good enough
Few Defeats: Knills Fault
Last week : Finances
This week: Should have had a pen etc etc.

Also, if you worked in facts and figures, you wouldn't cherry-pick your statistics to try and support a weak argument. Just take the facts of Knill's tenure as a whole and that will tell you all you need to know.

[PlainmoorRoar]

Player mistakes -> poor players -> poor signings -> poor manager

But Fonda is right, how could we have a bigger budget? If more local people bloody turn up!

Also the exiledgull have a day off blaming Thea utter, utter rubbish!

[exiledgull]

Have a day off?

I don't hardly post on here anymore, as the majority of posters are pretty clueless. Look at the support CH has here its ridiculous. He snaked his way into a job, and now is failing massively with backing. Things need to be said, its quite obvious.

Hector take apart the point in regards to numerous signings? 11 players he has in, 100% of a team if he so wished. He is failing but this a previous managers fault?

[exilegull]

It's clearly a combination of everything, however Fonda is right about the Bay not getting behind the team. Many of the ex-league teams who return from the Conference, return revitalised with higher attendances. We had two exactly seasons in the Conference, two Wembley visits and then we returned to the league and attendance dropped back to 2700. We then had two seasons consecutive seasons in the playoffs, the second season of which we were well in the hunt for automatic promotion and still we couldn't average over 3000 - we should have been 4000+. I do have some hope for the future as while we don't increase attendances when we do well, we don't seem to drop below 2,000 when we do poorly and that shoud provide enough budget to build a good squad for the conference and then hopefully success keeps us at 2700.

[CP Gull]

I work in facts and figures so lets have a look at the facts.

Knills last 5 games WWDLL = 7 points
Background information: We lost Marquis after the W, and struggled since then as Stockley was also injured.

Hargreaves Last 5 games LLLDL = 1 Point

To the people that said about being Knills squad. Since Hargreaves has arrived he has signed the following:
Shaun Cooper ,Joss Labadie ,Stockley (Resigned) ,Showumni ,Wilkinson, O Brien, Stevens , O'Connor (resigned) and Rudge

Also CH had the financial clout to recall back Lathrope and had Harding back fit which AK didn't have. So in total 11 further options that AK had. He could have got rid of O Conoor and Stockley so they effectually are classes as his signing. He has nearly replaced the whole team, and yet plays Knills players? Benyon back in starting line up?. Our goal last week from Harding to benyon and goal. CH should be thankful Knill has left him with some decent players, as the players we have brought in since then haven't been up to scratch.

The blame lies with Thea for getting rid of AK too soon, he was just turning it around and we pulled the trigger. We then employed someone who was trying to get the old manager the sack from the Chesterfield game at home, we then give him funds that we didn't the old manager. He then comes in with extra finances and fails to bring in decent players. AK was brought in same time last year to keep us up and was successful. He needed to freshen the team up again and this time they said let CH do that. Terrible choice.

I blame Thea then CH then AK.

We are destined now to be obsolete in the football world.

However when we read the Blame game CH seems to be a master.

Few weeks ago: Team is good enough to stay up
Then Takes Charge: Still good enough
Few Defeats: Knills Fault
Last week : Finances
This week: Should have had a pen etc etc.

Whether Chris Hargreaves turns out to be a decent Manager for us is far too early to say at this stage. Yes, perhaps he can shoulder some of the blame for recent results as to me has tinkered a little too much at times, but I can understand why he has done that as results/performances have quite simply not been good enough on a consistent basis.

I don't subscribe to the theory that he has had a load of money chucked at him though. Yes, he was given money to sign Cooper, but he wasn't to be aware that the fella doesn't seem to be able to stand up without twisting his ankle! He has retained Labadie (I believe Knill probably made the initial move to sign him, before Harrap completed the deal) and O'Connor but other than that I seriously doubt that we are/were paying anything in the way of wages for the likes of Goodwin, Wilkinson, O'Brien and Rudge. Likewise I cannot imagine that Hereford would have contributed much of the recalled Lathrope's wages and we have loaned the likes of Craig, yeoman and Thompson out to try and balance the books somewhat. As for Danny Stevens, I think it probably was a mistake bringing him back, but I doubt we are paying him much anyway.

It is probably only now, too little, too late in all honesty that we have actually brought in a loanee who is probably costing us a fair wedge in money in big Enoch Showumni. I would imagine we are paying most, if not all of his wages ... a last throw of the dice. When you look at how the Northampton Manager (to think it could have been Greavsie) has been backed with big money signings like Connell, Sinclair, Marquis, Diamond et al ... then the backing CH has received is pretty lame in comparison I would suggest.

As for not dropping Mansell and Nicholson, well that is quite simply not true as both have been left out since he has been here.

[arcadia]

Martyn Lings side has been destroyed and the players brought in have not been up to it. If Martyn had been in good health I don't think we would be in this position. In other words bad decisions have been made on choice of players and managers. I don't think Knill saved us last season and was dissapointed that Taylor was not able to guide us whilst Ling was ill as this was Lings own fault as you don't choose an assirtant who is not able to take over in an emergency situation.

[gullintwoplaces]

A real shame that some folk just want a witch hunt. OK, so you identify who is to blame, what do you want to do with that person or those persons? Put them in the stocks, shame them?

The fact is that a lot of things have gone wrong, poor decisions, panicky decisions, some bad management, bad behaviour, some lazy players, some bad luck, some utterly crap refereeing, the weather, injuries etc. etc.

The most positive thing that we could do is finish a dreadful season with some dignity. I hope we still have a club next season, I think we will but fans getting on the backs of all and sundry will not help. When I was younger there were some clubs whose fans got in the backs of their players at the drop of a hat. I had a mate who played for Oxford who suffered this, his dad went to a game and ripped into the "fans" who jeered him. His dad died not too long later. I have seen this behaviour more recently at Torquay, such as the cretin who tore into Martin Ling. What a bunch of "fans" we have become.

[PlainmoorRoar]

Martyn Lings side has been destroyed and the players brought in have not been up to it. If Martyn had been in good health I don't think we would be in this position. In other words bad decisions have been made on choice of players and managers. I don't think Knill saved us last season and was dissapointed that Taylor was not able to guide us whilst Ling was ill as this was Lings own fault as you don't choose an assirtant who is not able to take over in an emergency situation.

This is laughable, you wanted Taylor to be in charge till the end of that season!?

Deluded.