Is Hargreaves fit for purpose?

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 03 Mar 2015, 18:53

Thing is though trojan my old mucker it wasn't an assessment based on anything but his own opinion and as he hasn't got a clue about the day to day managerial tasks being undertaken by Chris Hargreaves nor the financial restrictions he's having to work under and that's before taking into account the piss poor players he's been lumbered with so let's just say I'm more than a little interested in how his opinions are formed to the point they're being passed off as facts.

Another viewpoint might be that he's been so poorly let down by his senior pros that even Mourinho would have struggled to to anything with them. There are a lot of things wrong at our club and none of them are the fault of Chris Hargreaves IMHO

Post by **Trojan 67** » 03 Mar 2015, 19:15

Southampton Gull wrote:There are a lot of things wrong at our club . . . . .

I know and it's like a smelly beer fart hanging in the air and no one appears able to open a window.

Burnhamgull · Post by **Burnhamgull** » 03 Mar 2015, 21:00

As CH stated on Saturday, nobody died and family is more important.

As it happens, my love for the club didn't quite die but my desire to spend any more money this season on travelling down to watch games has died and for that reason I won't be bothering with any of the midweek games between now and the end of the season.

I'll spend time with the family instead. I'm sure Chris would approve.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 03 Mar 2015, 21:58

goodluckgull wrote:Well said SG. I've been thinking the same about The Barnsley expert. A while back he actually posted "training counts for nothing" after I had expressed a wish that he could watch Greavsie take a training session and see for himself that Greavsie is a top coach. Training counts for a great deal in my book.

Oh well done for jumping on SG's bandwagon....
Oh it's really important that they do well in training...
As opposed to the 90+ mins that count on the pitch.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 03 Mar 2015, 22:02

Southampton Gull wrote:Come on then Mr Expert from Barnsley, lets hear your expert analysis of where Hargreaves is lacking and how you come to that bold view.

Well....
Lack of tactics, plan b, players out of position - ie alfreton, moaning about everything.
He maybe a great coach, but at the end of the day he knew what he was letting himself in for and so far including bringing in players he wanted, he has come up short.

teignmouth54 · Post by **teignmouth54** » 03 Mar 2015, 22:17

Hector wrote: [Someone, stood near me yesterday, shouted that CH was the club's worst ever manager. Now anyone with half a braincell knows that there are plenty of other former managers who could lay claim to that (dis)honour, not least Hargreaves's predecessor. Our history is littered with crap managers: Bob John, Jack Edwards, Musgrove, Impey, Compton, May, Saunders, Cornforth, Kubik, Knill for a start.]

I agree with your list of poor Torquay United managers, with the exception of the late Malcolm Musgrove, who was recommended to the club by Frank O'Farrell.

The previous manager, Jack Edwards, had taken Torquay from 18th place in division 3 on 9 October 1971, to 21st position in division 4 by the end of January 1973, and we faced the prospect of having to apply for re-election at the end of the season. Malcolm Musgrove took over and although we only finished 18th, the quality of football improved significantly. This continued into the following season and at the end of December 1973 we were in 4th place, 3 points ahead of the next side. Unfortunately, we finished the season in 16th place, only 1 point behind Exeter, who were 10th, but there were a number of entertaining games at Plainmoor.

In 1974/75, Torquay made a reasonable start and were 4th after 14 games. Unfortunately, we then began to slide down the table but it should be remembered that the club was suffering a severe financial crisis. Remember the urgent meeting with Torbay Council at Oldway Mansion and the selling of all the club's houses.

In March 1975 we sold goalkeeper Mike Mahoney to Newcastle for around £35,000, and brought in 4 players who strengthened the side considerably. We won 6 of our last 9 games and the future seemed brighter.

Torquay began the next season poorly, especially away from home where we conceded 20 goals in our first four games. However, from 1 November we were remarkably consistent and finished in 9th position, our highest place in division 4 during the seventies. If only we could have found a good striker to partner Willie Brown!

We opened 1976/77 with a home win against Huddersfield and then won 4-0 at Doncaster. We knocked Bournemouth and Burnley out of the League Cup, and on 13 November 1976, Torquay were 16th, only 3 points behind the club in 7th place. Disaster struck the following Saturday when Hillingdon Borough won 2-1 at Plainmoor in the F A Cup first round. Exit Mr Musgrove.

Previous posts have suggested that the attitudes of certain players contributed to Musgrove's downfall but he was the manager in charge and should have exerted control.

Musgrove's overall record for Torquay was:-

Games 188 W61 D58 D69 Win%32.45

He also took Torquay to the 3rd round of the League Cup in 1975/76 and 1976/77. Dizzy heights indeed for a club with such a wretched record in this competition.

Malcolm Musgrove was by no means one of Torquay United's best managers but his hands were tied by financial constraints. I do not consider that he warrants a place in your list and in my opinion the adjective used by you is inappropriate in his case.

Post by **Scott Brehaut** » 03 Mar 2015, 22:41

SuperNickyWroe wrote: Well....
Lack of tactics, plan b, players out of position - ie alfreton, moaning about everything.
He maybe a great coach, but at the end of the day he knew what he was letting himself in for and so far including bringing in players he wanted, he has come up short.

Actually, I'd say that the players he has brought in have done pretty well.

Off the top of my head, he's brought in the following:

Young
Briscoe
Bowman
MacDonald
Richards
Ajala
Seabright

Of those, only Seabright is a "dud" in the sense that he didn't break into the team and has now left.
Then you have the two non-contract players. Guegan played well v Eastleigh, though I've not seen Reid to pass comment. The other guy J-Mac has now signed too. Time will tell as to how good he is.

Yeah, Greavsie has made mistakes this season, but then show me a manager just starting out who hasn't....especially one working to the constraints he has had to.

If we are in the same position this time next season, I will be a lot more concerned and probably joining everybody in calling for his head. Until such a time though, I think he deserves the chance to show us what he can do with a clean slate. Given that only five or so players are contracted to us next season, he will be getting that chance rather soon.

Post by **SuperNickyWroe** » 03 Mar 2015, 22:48

Scott Brehaut wrote: Actually, I'd say that the players he has brought in have done pretty well.

Off the top of my head, he's brought in the following:

Young
Briscoe
Bowman
MacDonald
Richards
Ajala
Seabright

Of those, only Seabright is a "dud" in the sense that he didn't break into the team and has now left.
Then you have the two non-contract players. Guegan played well v Eastleigh, though I've not seen Reid to pass comment. The other guy J-Mac has now signed too. Time will tell as to how good he is.

Yeah, Greavsie has made mistakes this season, but then show me a manager just starting out who hasn't....especially one working to the constraints he has had to.

If we are in the same position this time next season, I will be a lot more concerned and probably joining everybody in calling for his head. Until such a time though, I think he deserves the chance to show us what he can do with a clean slate. Given that only five or so players are contracted to us next season, he will be getting that chance rather soon.

Youngs dropped off, Briscoe is overweight, bowman is frustrated....
Ok scott what about the other points?

hector · Post by **hector** » 03 Mar 2015, 22:58

teignmouth54 wrote:Hector wrote: [Someone, stood near me yesterday, shouted that CH was the club's worst ever manager. Now anyone with half a braincell knows that there are plenty of other former managers who could lay claim to that (dis)honour, not least Hargreaves's predecessor. Our history is littered with crap managers: Bob John, Jack Edwards, Musgrove, Impey, Compton, May, Saunders, Cornforth, Kubik, Knill for a start.]

I agree with your list of poor Torquay United managers, with the exception of the late Malcolm Musgrove, who was recommended to the club by Frank O'Farrell.

The previous manager, Jack Edwards, had taken Torquay from 18th place in division 3 on 9 October 1971, to 21st position in division 4 by the end of January 1973, and we faced the prospect of having to apply for re-election at the end of the season. Malcolm Musgrove took over and although we only finished 18th, the quality of football improved significantly. This continued into the following season and at the end of December 1973 we were in 4th place, 3 points ahead of the next side. Unfortunately, we finished the season in 16th place, only 1 point behind Exeter, who were 10th, but there were a number of entertaining games at Plainmoor.

In 1974/75, Torquay made a reasonable start and were 4th after 14 games. Unfortunately, we then began to slide down the table but it should be remembered that the club was suffering a severe financial crisis. Remember the urgent meeting with Torbay Council at Oldway Mansion and the selling of all the club's houses.

In March 1975 we sold goalkeeper Mike Mahoney to Newcastle for around £35,000, and brought in 4 players who strengthened the side considerably. We won 6 of our last 9 games and the future seemed brighter.

Torquay began the next season poorly, especially away from home where we conceded 20 goals in our first four games. However, from 1 November we were remarkably consistent and finished in 9th position, our highest place in division 4 during the seventies. If only we could have found a good striker to partner Willie Brown!

We opened 1976/77 with a home win against Huddersfield and then won 4-0 at Doncaster. We knocked Bournemouth and Burnley out of the League Cup, and on 13 November 1976, Torquay were 16th, only 3 points behind the club in 7th place. Disaster struck the following Saturday when Hillingdon Borough won 2-1 at Plainmoor in the F A Cup first round. Exit Mr Musgrove.

Previous posts have suggested that the attitudes of certain players contributed to Musgrove's downfall but he was the manager in charge and should have exerted control.

Musgrove's overall record for Torquay was:-

Games 188 W61 D58 D69 Win%32.45

He also took Torquay to the 3rd round of the League Cup in 1975/76 and 1976/77. Dizzy heights indeed for a club with such a wretched record in this competition.

Malcolm Musgrove was by no means one of Torquay United's best managers but his hands were tied by financial constraints. I do not consider that he warrants a place in your list and in my opinion the adjective used by you is inappropriate in his case.

That's fair enough, Teignmouth and you have offered a convincing argument as to why Malcolm Musgrove shouldn't be on that list, and the only reason I will leave him on it and not edit him out, is so that your posting makes sense to any subsequent readers. Thanks for the info.

arcadia · Post by **arcadia** » 03 Mar 2015, 23:10

Briscoe is underplayed he should be played behind Bowman so that the midfield receive the ball on the front foot at the moment the strikers are not good enough to hold the ball. Briscoes first touch is good and he can bring the midfield into the game. Saturday the wide players were not in the game until Chapell came on Hargreaves should have brought Briscoe on just after half time.
I would have started with him.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 04 Mar 2015, 00:52

SuperNickyWroe wrote:
Well....
Lack of tactics, plan b, players out of position - ie alfreton, moaning about everything.
He maybe a great coach, but at the end of the day he knew what he was letting himself in for and so far including bringing in players he wanted, he has come up short.

Lack of tactics? I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of tactics but they're not coming to fruition with this set of players.

He had a plan b at Eastleigh and it got us 3 points

He was forced through injuries to play players out of position, his gamble went horribly wrong but he tried something different, admittedly he could have changed it but we don't know the reasons why he didn't.

I wouldn't say his player additions have been bad at all, it's the players he was saddled with that have let him down. Downes missed some important games through suspension, Harding through injury, Benyon through lack of form, Pearce for various reasons until recently

Your argument is looking very weak to me. The point is its far too early to judge him.fairly, there are plenty of facts to back that up, where are yours?

wodger of awabia · Post by **wodger of awabia** » 04 Mar 2015, 14:00

Southampton Gull wrote:Thing is though trojan my old mucker it wasn't an assessment based on anything but his own opinion and as he hasn't got a clue about the day to day managerial tasks being undertaken by Chris Hargreaves nor the financial restrictions he's having to work under and that's before taking into account the piss poor players he's been lumbered with so let's just say I'm more than a little interested in how his opinions are formed to the point they're being passed off as facts.

Another viewpoint might be that he's been so poorly [color=#000080]let down by his senior pros [/color]that even Mourinho would have struggled to to anything with them. There are a lot of things wrong at our club and none of them are the fault of Chris Hargreaves IMHO

Yes, keep the youngsters, dump the dead wood, and even sign a few part timers that are interested in winning games, playing football & securing a full time contract for themselves. IMVHO.

Sesimbra · Post by **Sesimbra** » 04 Mar 2015, 20:10

How can it possibly be said that Hargreaves is blameless concerning the Clubs present position. He is the manager, picks the team, dictates the formations and is responsible for the discipline of the players 75% of the team are his players.
It is continually being said that he has no funds to play with. Probably true but this applies to most Conference Clubs with one or two exceptions.
Kidderminster is the latest to have cash problems.
FACT Knill kept Torquay in League 2. Hargreaves failed to do so and has also failed to have an impact on the Conference this season with the team at the lowest point in the Club's history.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 04 Mar 2015, 20:26

Find a quote that says he's blameless because I'm not sure anyone has actually said that nor intimated such a thought. He's a novice manager so it's pretty obvious that he will get things wrong from time to time.

Dave_Pougher · Post by **Dave_Pougher** » 04 Mar 2015, 20:58

How about he really wanted to be Torquay manager more than any other job.
How about he is to blame and he knows it
How about he is hurting right now for things he can be blamed for,as well as the things he can not.
How about he's being blamed for team selections in which he had no choice.
How about he wishes to be successful at TUFC more than anything else
How about he has ideas and is unable to implement them through no fault of his own.
How about the players, the staff, the support are all blaming him and he is absorbing that pressure for the sake of TUFC
How about he's had other offers and has turned them down and wants to be here.
How about he's doing his best for TQY because he wants to and we've had precious few of those over the last ten years.
How about he already knows what he is try to do next season and knows it won't be easy but knows it's the right thing for the good of the club?

What you support him through this?

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