Ling v Buckle

[Father Jack]

There's a blind spot in your reasoning and you haven't addressed the question..

The answer to your question is in red being as you seem to have missed it first time.

If you read the post again, its says at the start of the season. When did Stanley etc. come to us last season?

[Dave]

Comparing the budgets at different clubs for a manager is fatuous at best. We were discussing the budget at Torquay in case it slipped your attention, not Bristol Rovers.

Nope, this thread is comparing Ling to Buckle, my reply was a general contribution , and my reasoning is of sound mind , and in no way lacking any thought process, Buckle was given riches that Lingy can only dream of having here, Buckle forked up was found out,he so far out of his depth at Rover's , he signed 23 players , he would have signed 33 if they had given him the chance, supose he would have got it right in the end, if a dummy signed enough players no doubt , said dummy would find 11 capable of winning a football match at some point.

Therefore the comparison of his budget at Rovers to Torquay, is totaly relevant to this thread.

[Trojan 67]

It looks like one of those long nights in on the computer trying to get through to someone (without success) who is too deaf to see and too blind to hear . . . .

As much as I would like to see us push for the playoffs and finish the season in a playoff place, I see us finishing midtable. This isn't to do with lack of "ambition" or costs, but due to a lack of strength in depth in the playing squad.

If a mystic had said to me at season beginning, would you take right now 9th place, 2pts outside of the playoffs on 38pts in the first week of January 2012, I would've snapped their hand off.

That for me is the difference between Ling/Buckle.

One with greater resources had a side constantly "over achieving" (utter b*ll*cks) while the greater one on reduced resources has the pwoper nous to get his side performing to its full potential.

[Father Jack]

It looks like one of those long nights in on the computer trying to get through to someone (without success) who is too deaf to see and too blind to hear . . . .

One with greater resources had a side constantly "over achieving" (utter b*ll*cks)

I get the same feeling on this subject.

So again, I suggest you read my opening post and tell me just how, given the financial strength last season compared to the likes of Bradford, Shrewsbury and the other clubs with higher income streams and budgets, its was "utter b*ll*cks" to say we didnt overachieve? Not just us but also Accy and Stevenage who also, compared to the big budget clubs already mentioned, were certainly "punching above their weight", just the same as we were.

Ive obviously put the pertinent bits for you in bold but I fail to see how anyone in their right mind can say we didnt overachieve last season, given our budget in comparison to the likes of Northampton, Oxford and the like, that we finished above. That hardly makes it "utter bollox" does it??

And you can also add to that the fact that, compared to the already mentioned clubs, we appear to be "punching above our weight" yet again this season as well as last season. Unless you think that's utter bollox as well?

[Trojan 67]

I'll put it simply, because you ain't ever gonna see it.


A TEAM NEVER OVER ACHIEVES/PUNCHES ABOVE ITS WEIGHT, IT SIMPLY PERFORMS TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL


This is what this thread is about (Ling v Buckle) and Dinger is not pissing what little gunpowder he has into the wind.

[Dave]

It was Paul Buckle's own choice to have a squad of 16 and fill the rest up with loans, Paul Buckle paid "rent" for a better standard of player than the club could actually afford to sign on permenant contracts , we borrowed a team which would have wiped out the budgets of Bradford and Shrewsbury, therefore we did not over achieve.

Many would say, how did we not go up with the team we had last season, and maybe considering as you rightly said yourself f/j in the past, we could not afford to sign any of these ..it was a good job we did not go up.

[hector]

I have just watched the highlights on GullsPlayer to confirm what I remember about that wonderful game on Monday at Plymouth, which was we were playing some delightful football. Is this down to Ling or the quality of players we have. there were some times last season when we played some good football, but I'm not sure it was as good as that 2nd half at Home Park.

I was very much against Ling at the start but really do feel I should eat a bit of humble pie because he is doing a much better job than I ever imagined anyone would do for us, considering the way the previous season ended - so full credit to the man for that...coupled with the fact he is said to be a decent bloke, I am very pleased.

Buckle, I think, got carried away with his 'blossoming reputation' and at Rovers probably felt like the Don, invincible and untouchable. But perhaps he will, or probably won't, learn a valuable lesson in how to treat people.

For Buckle it almost seems like it is all over. What appeared to be a promising managerial career buggered before it got going because he would be now a risky to poor appointment for any league club and I cannot see him being successful with anyone other than a wealthy non-league club. there is a case of a man who really did blow it.

[Trojan 67]

Good post Hector, a fair assessment and summary.

[ferrarilover]

FJ, you've fallen into the trap of making a massive assumption at the start of your argument and failing to see your error throughout.
You have assumed that the amount of money an ordinary team in L2 has to spend is automatically commensurate to its quality.
Go back to our squad and the matches we played against teams with more money than us. Look at every position team v team and you'll find that against almost every team, in almost every position, our players were superior and it is this quality, rather than the amount they cost to buy or are being paid, which makes a team successful.

We have spent wisely, rather than extensively and it is for this reason that I take the view that Trojan's point about our team performing (merely) well, rather than so far beyond its natural level as to warrant the 'overachievers' tag.

Matt.

[SkyBlueGull]

Southampton Gull

I recognise your post ref the directors not wanting promotion last year - and I fully understand it.
It was going to be fiscally challenging when really the club needed to take stock, draw breath and reign in the expenses incurred by PB and CL because based on the last 2 years the situation was going to become unsustainable.

I come from a Finance back ground and I understand all that. (What is frustrating is that my 90 year old father in law still holds a couple of shares in TUFC - mysteriously this year he didnt get a copy of the accounts,( which I pore over avidly) or an invite to the AGM which was poorly attended - if I was paranoid I would wonder why)

Anyway based on your earlier observations i would ask the following question.

If at the end of this season the club made the play offs and got to the final would the board of directors want the club to win??
( There could be little in the way of local derbies if we left Rovers/Plymouth behind and Yeovil/Exeter came down and it would still be heavily northern based)

I would not like to think I could be considering buying a ticket to the play off final when my team has no incentive to win - or indeed an incentive not to win!!!!

Your observations about PB and the fact that the board allowed negotiations to begin before we had played Stevenage makes me wonder whether the board - in their desire not to get promoted - actually were complicit so that the uncertaintity could de-stabilise the team and lead to the poor performance we saw at Old Trafford.

My heart hopes that the answer is that the board want promotion but my fiscal head tells me that we need to stay in this division and consolidate with local derbies and a new stadium/grandstand to fill for a couple more seasons before we will have clawed back from the 2 years of heavy losses the club made.

Personally I believe we should get into L1 at any given opportunity - it keeps us at least 2 seasons away from the BSP - although if it hadnt been for Atkins we were on course for 2 succesive relegations last time. I think if we went into the BSP again we would never come out in my lifetime because it is becoming a graveyard for ex league clubs

[Southampton Gull]

I can't disagree with any of your conclusions or indeed any of your hopes wishes and fears. It's a difficult one and as I said previously, as much as I was infuriated at the time of the play-off final you can certainly understand why a Board more informed of the financial constraints would be inclined to feel that promotion wasn't a good thing for the long term stability of the Club.

I'll always want promotion as a fan, without that hope I don't see the point of competing but then looking at the bigger picture what is the harm of a few seasons of consolidation?

[Gazzableedsgull]

Southampton Gull

I recognise your post ref the directors not wanting promotion last year - and I fully understand it.
It was going to be fiscally challenging when really the club needed to take stock, draw breath and reign in the expenses incurred by PB and CL because based on the last 2 years the situation was going to become unsustainable.

I come from a Finance back ground and I understand all that. (What is frustrating is that my 90 year old father in law still holds a couple of shares in TUFC - mysteriously this year he didnt get a copy of the accounts,( which I pore over avidly) or an invite to the AGM which was poorly attended - if I was paranoid I would wonder why)

Anyway based on your earlier observations i would ask the following question.

If at the end of this season the club made the play offs and got to the final would the board of directors want the club to win??
( There could be little in the way of local derbies if we left Rovers/Plymouth behind and Yeovil/Exeter came down and it would still be heavily northern based)

I would not like to think I could be considering buying a ticket to the play off final when my team has no incentive to win - or indeed an incentive not to win!!!!

Your observations about PB and the fact that the board allowed negotiations to begin before we had played Stevenage makes me wonder whether the board - in their desire not to get promoted - actually were complicit so that the uncertaintity could de-stabilise the team and lead to the poor performance we saw at Old Trafford.

My heart hopes that the answer is that the board want promotion but my fiscal head tells me that we need to stay in this division and consolidate with local derbies and a new stadium/grandstand to fill for a couple more seasons before we will have clawed back from the 2 years of heavy losses the club made.

Personally I believe we should get into L1 at any given opportunity - it keeps us at least 2 seasons away from the BSP - although if it hadnt been for Atkins we were on course for 2 succesive relegations last time. I think if we went into the BSP again we would never come out in my lifetime because it is becoming a graveyard for ex league clubs

I do disagree with what you say about the board not wanting promotion, i think the bad performance at OT can just be put down to being a bad performance and nothing else, if PB is to blame for contributing to it then that could be a fair assessment however to imply that the board contributed to it, IMO is unfair. Also i make the point that if you know a manager is leaving before a massive game like a playoff final then surely as players and human beings it is your instinct to go out on that pitch and prove whoever wrong. I think we can put it down to "just one of them days" and move on from it because we have/had strong individual characters in the dressing room and also to say the performance was purely down to PB, i think is incorrect too.

[Trojan 67]

Ling v Buckle (transfer window) . . .

. . . our man in charge plays the cool waiting game . . .

. . . yesterdays man ain't in charge anywhere to play any game.

[Rjc70]

Although he is very much in the bookie's running for the vacant Stevenage job.

[Aussie]

What have Stevenage done to deserve that then?