should some clubs be allowed in the league

[Glostergull]

I know it's a very contentious issue but with Macclesfield and Morecombe tonight having games against opposition who don't take great numbers away it showed what the real bedrock of support is for those clubs.
The gates were pitiful and it cannot be that good for football.
I cannot even begin to think what the effect is on moral for the players as they turn out for the game only to see 1200 in the ground. The atmosphere cannot be great. in fact it is probably horrible.
Now with the best will in the world I would like to think every club would get an extra 2000 on their gate when they got into the league. This is plainly not going to happen. But when those clubs enter the league and only get gates of 1200 and 1600 respectively they can't have many fans go to away matches. This then impacts all the other clubs in the league. it could mean quite a bit of money.
Surely if a club gets to the top of the non league there should be a fitness test on that club. not just is it run well but has it got a decent bedrock of support to allow a return on the investment they will have to make.
I feel that they should have enough fans to go away to make it worth having away sections at opposing grounds.
Now don't get me wrong. i think that clubs should be allowed to rise up through the ranks. But surely it cannot help the league if a tiny club gets into league 2 and doesn't bring fans to away matches in enough numbers to cover the costs of the home team in stewarding and providing all the facilities that is required. It costs a lot of money to firstly build the away stand. Money for toilets. food outlets. fencing and stewards etc. Imagine what an outcry there would be if we didn't provide food for away fans. But at what cost if only 30 odd fans arrive. or even less. I can imagine that the club would not be impressed with spending out £150 only to get a return of £70. and with more of the little clubs coming in and clubs who provided a decent enough number of fans going out of the league. I cannot see it being worth providing facilities for an average of 90 fans for most of the season.
is there a case for away ends to become home ends and a few seats being made for the very few who attend or saying it's not worth having them any more.
I know it contentious but it has to be addressed sometime. or all clubs will end up losing even more money in the climate where they cannot afford to lose another penny.

[Southampton Gull]

Considering we have some midweek games where the crowd has been around 1800 I couldn't disagree more. If you go by your argument you might as well disband League 2 immediately.

[AustrianAndyGull]

I agree with Dave too, sorry GG. Clubs like Macc and Accy who regularly get around the 1500 mark are probably being run in a sensible and sustainable way which suits them fine. A clubs level of support is no barrier to what can be achieved on the field of play. As for players not wanting to make an effort because there aren't many fans there then the manager (if he's any good ) will spot it and get rid. I'd like to think that generally players will want to play well in order to improve their chances of getting a move somewhere 'bigger'. I can understand your point though and i have often thought it myself when stood on the terrace at Macc for example when its deathly quiet and the game is dull.

[stefano]

It is good that clubs are not banned from the Football League on the basis of attendances as we would have been booted out probably never to return at the end of 1985/86.

We finished rock bottom of Division 4 (League 2) 6 points adrift of the club in 23rd position having amassed only 37 points, scored only 43 goals, and with our top goalscorer notching 5! We had to apply for re-election (no automatic relegation then) and how some clubs must have been tempted to vote against us after their long trips to play in front of a handful of people.

We had had 7 home games that season of below 1000 spectators, and a 0-0 draw with Crewe on 1 March 1986 with a crowd of 850 was a miserable cold affair!

How times change though. We were re-elected and have had 3 promotions soon to be 4 (plus 3 relegations) since. We may not attract the largest crowds now but we are certainly worth watching and when the stand is completed we will have quite a tidy little ground, certainly good enough to grace League 1 next season.

My 50th season supporting next season .... very fitting to finish champions of League 1

[happytorq]

going to add my own voice to the chorus of dissent about the OP - how many times have we seen opposition fans (coughBristolRoverscough) call themselves 'bigger' clubs because they have better attendances? It happens all the time, and it's still annoying.

You get exactly 0 points a season based on your support. As already mentioned, if your place in the league in contingent about a certain level of support, we probably would have gone away years ago. The beauty of the pyramid system we have is that it is theoretically possible to ascend from the sunday league to the premiership. I know there are barriers - ground issues mostly, but those are for safety - but making attendance one of them risks turning it into a franchise model. Haven't you seen Major League?

It is a testament to how well run some smaller clubs are that they do ok with crappy attendances, especially when you contrast with 'bigger' clubs who struggle to pay the bills.

[leetufc]

Got to completely agree with all the comments on this. It shouldn't matter how big a clubs fan base is in determining what league they play in, but in how they best use those resources, which is what the current system does. Bradford for example have a far bigger potential fan base than most clubs in league two, yet constantly struggle to even get into the top half, let alone challange for promotion, whereas a club like Accrington with the minimal resources they have constantly do better than expectations. In what way would it be fair that Bradford were allowed entry to the league and Accrington denied it simply because of their catchment area and history?

[friendlygas]

I think promotion into the Football League should always be guaged on ability on the pitch plus as ta present the ground being up to safety standards. Other than that why should attendance have anything to do with whether or not you come into the Football League. If you start to bring in rules for this division are you then going to bring in higher rules for League 1 say 5000 attendance,10.00o average to get into the Championship and 15-20,000 average to get into the Premiership. I really find it quite comical that somebody from Torquay should be moaning about the number of travelling fans of certain clubs when your own attendances arent exactly stand out. I sometimes stand at the Memorial Ground and think it is great when say Macclesfield only bring 100 supporters and think what great supporters they are. Football means exactly the same to them as you or I.
You only have to look through all divisions of the League to see there are well supported clubs and poorly supported clubs and then IMO you should think on the basis of how brilliant those smaller clubs do to survive and even prosper on very low gates. We could more than hold our own in League 1 with our home attendances and our away following in comparison to home support is probably Championship class but where are we in the League.... where we deserve to be at this present time..League 2. I think the day that Football in any of the Leagues is rated on anything other than ability will nbe a very sad day for football and I cringe when I hear of ceretain teams trying to make the premiership a closed shop. When and if that occurred then IMO you may as well dissolve the Leagues completely as what would be the point of competing in say the Championshuip if you couldnt get promoted? Money should never triumph over the ability and this is why I do not feel sorry for say Portsmouth FC when they have spent so far beyond their means. Don't get me wrong I feel sorry for their supporters but not the club.

[Southampton Gull]

Our travelling fans are actually always out in good force, it's home attendances that are pitiful. I'd wager that as a percentage of our home support the travelling Yellow Army are as large if not larger than your own. As an example, we took nearly 90% of our average league gate to Argyle, close to 50% to the Memorial, 20% to Crawley. We know we're a small club but are proud of our away support.

[AustrianAndyGull]

I reckon we have quite a number of northern based Gulls which helps swell our numbers away from home at northern / midlands away games. These would include exiles as well as fans like myself who have no real connection to Torquay but choose to support them. ( I did work in Cornwall for a year and knew a bloke who used to go to Plainmoor infrequently if that can be classed as a genuine reason!! ). I also reckon that there are a fair few of us in the latter camp. Now where did those 'Rotherham Gulls' go ? Took their flag with them to no doubt!

[Glostergull]

I thought this would bring out a fair bit of dissension. I saw this on the net. I think it was from a football newspaper commentator who is a fan of one of the clubs in the league.. i think i bookmarked it do if I can find it I will post the link.
It did get me thinking and some of the comments made sense on here too. Sorry FriendlyGas I wasn't moaning. I was putting up a point I think needed commenting on.
One thing I do feel. I find a good atmosphere something to help encourage me to go and watch a team. I do find that following non league for me is quite often motivated by what sort of atmosphere is likely to be present. With the best will in the world I would find it hard to want to go and stand out in the cold.(Health considerations have to come into it for me) only to find I am one of only 30 0r 40 in a crowd you could count out by standing on the sideline. I have been on crowds of only 300 and it's like going to a funeral. I have also been in smaller crowds where the atmosphere is quite noisy. and finaly I have sat at Plainmoor and felt I was present at a wake. and I am not talking about the Roberts days. gashtly though they were. I also remember the web days with less than 1,000 in the ground. It is not a scene i would wish to witness again. Indeed I have sat in the Family stand in the Wes Saunders days trying to encourage the junoir fans to sign their hearts out the right way.. I even tried to teach them new songs and ways to show they can support out team without embarrasing some of the adults around. It was then I was told quite forcibly that "we don't shout and cheer our team on in here". I replied "Well, we do now, you had better get used to it". I qm gald to say that the pop side has followed since with really making a lot of noise with one or two exceptions.
I doubt I would be pushed much to go to either Macclesfield or Morecombe unless there was really something huge at stake where the atmosphere is likely to be pretty warm. I need a good atmosphere to help take my mind off some of the pain I have when standing in the cold. And this written piece set me thinking what other think about this. I bet there is someone within our club who may well think the same way.

There is one think I would like to add.
I am glad that it is possible to have this sort of discussion on this forum. There aren't many forums where we could have a reasonable intelligent debate without it descending into mud slinging and insults flying about. I have been accused of rabble rousing with a strong toungue in cheek.by our web master on Glostergulls but he like me does recognise that intelligent debate as well as the humour is one of the things that help to really set this forum apart from others. I am a member of several other forums. I post on one or two. But there are very few that don't descend into insults and stupid behaviour for the smallest reason.
Congratulations Gulls fans and the few others (especialy decent Rovers fans)that grace our forum for making it such.

[friendlygas]

And so you should be proud of your clubs away support AND your teams performance. I was not getting at your support just really trying to point out that clubs should not be rated on their support or lack of it.As regards your percentage of home crowd to away being comparable to ours I dont deny this although if we were in your position rather than where we find ourselves then I am sure our away support would be a much higher percentage. Truth is that we NEED the sort of run your team have had to persuade supporters to come back because they have seen it all before and improvement is not good enough to bring our crowds back. If we had seen the successful season you have had with a few long winning runs we would be getting 8000 now and for some games possibly higher.As for away support we take 400 to most away games no matter the distance. If we had been successful then away support would have doubled and I dsread to think how many would have been trying to get in saturday. The allocation sold out without even going outside of season ticket holders.
What do you think the attendance wil be saturday? I predict that we will probably only have about 200 trying to get in other parts of the ground although if 2000 tickets had been available we would have sold out. Many will not travel on the offchance of getting in and more imprtantly STAYING in. Should be a great game and really looking forward to it..hoping however we don't give you a three goal start like Tuesday night!!!

[Southampton Gull]

We only need a one goal start

[stefano]

I thought this would bring out a fair bit of dissension. I saw this on the net. I think it was from a football newspaper commentator who is a fan of one of the clubs in the league.. i think i bookmarked it do if I can find it I will post the link.

It was in the Non League Newspaper. Haven't seen the article myself but a mate of mine who is a Hereford supporter told me about it last night. He is obviously forward planning for next season! As an aside I took him to Plainmoor earlier in the season with no problems, but he then went to Home Park unsupervised and managed to get himself arrested for running on to the pitch when Hereford equalised! Planning to go to Hereford with him last game of season ... which will be nice as will be my first away game outside of Devon (I don't count Wembley) since Coventry in 1988.

[Glostergull]

It was in the Non League Newspaper. Haven't seen the article myself but a mate of mine who is a Hereford supporter told me about it last night. He is obviously forward planning for next season! As an aside I took him to Plainmoor earlier in the season with no problems, but he then went to Home Park unsupervised and managed to get himself arrested for running on to the pitch when Hereford equalised! Planning to go to Hereford with him last game of season ... which will be nice as will be my first away game outside of Devon (I don't count Wembley) since Coventry in 1988.

Ah I looked it up and your right it was the non league paper. I knew I had seen it somewhere. Just put it down to me old age.

[oxgull]

Low support should be no yardstick for membership of the league as long as the club is run in a financially responsible way. We aren't the best, in terms of numbers, supported side but our away support, of which I tend to be a member of more than travelling to Plainmoor, is always excellent. Like Dave SG says it's our home support that is lack lustre at times. I remember those bad old days of sub 1000 gates and an atmosphere like playing on the moon. A few kids trying to raise a chant in the mini stand was all you got and a performance to match it, DIRE. But we are still around and football has moved on and all clubs have a hard core of passionate support that keeps them going so numbers going through the turnstiles are not the complete story here. Maybe for our part the new Bristows Bench will see a rise in our numbers as, I am sure, some are staying away because their favourite seat in the old grandstand has gone. Other clubs have seen attendances rise and stay up as a result of a new stadium or ground development so why not us? I certainly hope so.

No, as long as those clubs mentioned can compete and are well run despite low numbers then that is all that matters IMHO.