Marks for diving

[SuperNickyWroe]

Did Berbatov fall or was he pushed in the opening minute of today's game vs. Liverpool..?????

either or mate. unike that cheat walcott who confessed!

[EmetEdadsBeard]

It was a pen. and believe me I'm no Man Ure fan. It was one of those games where I wanted both to lose. But contact made, next step off balance (his foot is clearly not squarely on the turf) fall over=penalty.
And finally a ref whose had the gonads to send off Gerrard for a dangerous tackle, something he's been getting away with for years

[ferrarilover]

Quite right Mr Beard.

To my mind (I make no secret of my long held admiration for Man Utd) we have here a deeply confusing situation where we have a challenge which is not a foul, but has correctly resulted in the award of a penalty. Allow me to elaborate.

The contact made on Berbatov by the defender (who's name I have not the will to look up) was not, in itself, sufficient to cause the striker to fall. Nor was it sufficiently rash or dangerous as to classify it as a foul regardless of the severity of the contact made. However, it was sufficient contact to legitimise the tactic of exaggerating a fall to make clear to the officials that contact has been made. This was the tactic employed my Berbatov. In this instance, we have a situation where neither player is guilty of a foul. The defender has not fouled Berbatov (football is, after all, a contact sport) Berbatov has not dived (that is to go to ground in the absolute absence of contact).
Berbatov having gone down, the official must satisfy himself (alone or in consult with his linesman) that the contact made was sufficient to warrant Berbatov going to ground, if not by force, then to make clear to the official that contact had been made.

Interesting.

On the Gerrard thing, my question is, why did ITV let an ex Liverpool player commentate? He was incredibly frustrating in his bias in favour in all things of his former employers. To suggest that the Gerrard tackle was not worth of a red card was equivalent to suggesting that the crimes of Ted Bundy did not warrant the death penalty. It was an appalling tackle, worth of more stringent punishment than the law currently allows. It is by the grace of God and that alone that no lasting damage was inflicted on Michael Carrick.

Matt.

[EmetEdadsBeard]

Quite right Mr Beard.

To my mind (I make no secret of my long held admiration for Man Utd) we have here a deeply confusing situation where we have a challenge which is not a foul, but has correctly resulted in the award of a penalty. Allow me to elaborate.

The contact made on Berbatov by the defender (who's name I have not the will to look up) was not, in itself, sufficient to cause the striker to fall. Nor was it sufficiently rash or dangerous as to classify it as a foul regardless of the severity of the contact made. However, it was sufficient contact to legitimise the tactic of exaggerating a fall to make clear to the officials that contact has been made. This was the tactic employed my Berbatov. In this instance, we have a situation where neither player is guilty of a foul. The defender has not fouled Berbatov (football is, after all, a contact sport) Berbatov has not dived (that is to go to ground in the absolute absence of contact).Berbatov having gone down, the official must satisfy himself (alone or in consult with his linesman) that the contact made was sufficient to warrant Berbatov going to ground, if not by force, then to make clear to the official that contact had been made.

Interesting.

On the Gerrard thing, my question is, why did ITV let an ex Liverpool player commentate? He was incredibly frustrating in his bias in favour in all things of his former employers. To suggest that the Gerrard tackle was not worth of a red card was equivalent to suggesting that the crimes of Ted Bundy did not warrant the death penalty. It was an appalling tackle, worth of more stringent punishment than the law currently allows. It is by the grace of God and that alone that no lasting damage was inflicted on Michael Carrick.

Matt.

Many years ago when God was a lad, I was still playing and 'proper' contact was allowed, I played in a pre season friendly just 5 days before the start of the season, a season my club were one of the favourites to win our league. I had aired my worries to our manager that it was 'a game too far' and 'someone was going to get injured' but the match against one of our local rivals went ahead.
"Whats this got to do with Berbatov?" and "get on with it you boring get" I hear you cry but it is relevant.
Just two minutes from the end of the match I suffered a similar challenge to the one on Berbatov. Nothing malicious, just a mistimed tackle that put me off balance and off my stride. I also (as Berbatov did) landed on the side of my foot and went down off balance a stride later (as Berbatov did). Unfortunately I wasn't so lucky, as it was outside the penalty area and my best mate heard the crack 70 yards away as my leg broke in two places. Believe me I have never dived in my life, its cheating and I hate it.
The point is, the bit I've highlighted is, my friend,in my opinion complete nonsense. A foul was committed, it put him off balance (remember they play at 100mph by comparison to the level ANY of us have ever played at) and he went over as a consequence.
Remember, I'm not a ManUre fan, I hate them with a passion, but because it was agains't Thieverpool suddenly its a dive and the ref. and everybody hates us and its not fair and nothing is ever any of our faults not Heysel or Hillsborough or anything ever and we want a replay and Stevie G didn't even foul Carrick he fell over to get him sent off!

(And as a consequence I missed three months of the season and we finished third if memory serves me correctly )

[ferrarilover]

Firstly, OUCHIE. Secondly, I fail to agree with you on the whole, side of the ankle thing. In fact, I submit that my elderly Grandmother, who is frail and unsteady, would have been able to correct her balance given the unlikely occurrence of identical circumstances.
I see the VERY minor deflection of the angle of initial contact between Berbatov's foot and the ground, but I suggest that, as a professional athlete, a fit, able bodied young man, he was more than capable of recovering such a very small change of circumstance.
Now, I played Lacrosse, a proper mans game, lots of blood, hospitalisation and such. I am fast over the ground, very fast, I venture a damn sight faster then Berbatov, certainly faster than he was travelling at the time contact was made with his leg. I have been hit, full body contact by guys weighing upwards of 5 stone more than me, and I have maintained my footing.
Equally, I have witnessed on innumerate occassions, players in the NFL get hit low and hard by guys weighing in at 400lbs, and manage to keep their footing.
My ultimate argument is that, in direct oppostion to your assertion, Mr Beard, Berbatov could, with absolutely no effort at all, have kept his footing.
Should he? Absolutely not. If he feels contact and wishes to make this known to the official, then he is absolutely right to go down, it is then up to the referee to make up his mind about the appropriate course of action.

Matt.

[EmetEdadsBeard]

Firstly, OUCHIE. Secondly, I fail to agree with you on the whole, side of the ankle thing. In fact, I submit that my elderly Grandmother, who is frail and unsteady, would have been able to correct her balance given the unlikely occurrence of identical circumstances.
I see the VERY minor deflection of the angle of initial contact between Berbatov's foot and the ground, but I suggest that, as a professional athlete, a fit, able bodied young man, he was more than capable of recovering such a very small change of circumstance.
Now, I played Lacrosse, a proper mans game, lots of blood, hospitalisation and such. I am fast over the ground, very fast, I venture a damn sight faster then Berbatov, certainly faster than he was travelling at the time contact was made with his leg. I have been hit, full body contact by guys weighing upwards of 5 stone more than me, and I have maintained my footing.
Equally, I have witnessed on innumerate occassions, players in the NFL get hit low and hard by guys weighing in at 400lbs, and manage to keep their footing.
My ultimate argument is that, in direct oppostion to your assertion, Mr Beard, Berbatov could, with absolutely no effort at all, have kept his footing.
Should he? Absolutely not. If he feels contact and wishes to make this known to the official, then he is absolutely right to go down, it is then up to the referee to make up his mind about the appropriate course of action.

Matt.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as I can see it from both sides. What happened to me is in favour of Berbatov, but much of what you said reflects something The 'Tache (my lad) said. He's been playing Rugby League (full contact, none of this tag rubbish ) since he was 6 years old. Still playing now at a very high standard.
We were watching Match Of The Day, and a player (cant remember who) went down clutching his face and writhing about like he'd been hit with a baseball bat following little more than an arm brushing his face. He said "If I went down and rolled about after getting hit in the face as soft as that when I play Rugby my own team mates would laugh at me"
He was 10 at the time. :-|

[cambgull]

The main trouble is that this situation brings up the idea of "it's either a penalty or a yellow for diving" again. We will eventually get to a point where as a defender you cannot make any contact what-so-ever on an attacker in the box. The game will be awful if every foul is given a penalty as we'll just end up having players simulating injuries over and over again because the slightest contact was made. Even as a United fan, I still have my doubts as to whether it was really a penalty. Although by the laws of the game, it was, 20 years ago that never would've been given as it was essentially a pretty soft penalty. Football is gradually turning into a non-contact sport and once it does get to that point, we'll all get very bored of the game as it will just be games made up of controversial decisions.

[ferrarilover]

Beardy, while we may have to disagree on this point, please pass on my wholehearted congratulations to the Tache for being a top bloke and a proper man. Nothing in life makes me more ashamed to be a football fan than when a rugby lad raises the whole "Yeah, but your lot are a bunch of fairies" argument. The rather depressing thing is,I agree entirely with their point of view, but since Rugbyists seem to want to make everything into an 'us and them' situation with soccer fans, I am forced to put up an argument which I do not fully support. Oh well, all good practice for Court, I suppose.
Oh, and who might the Tache be? Anyone I've heard of? PM if it's more in his interest.

Matt.

[EmetEdadsBeard]

Beardy, while we may have to disagree on this point, please pass on my wholehearted congratulations to the Tache for being a top bloke and a proper man. Nothing in life makes me more ashamed to be a football fan than when a rugby lad raises the whole "Yeah, but your lot are a bunch of fairies" argument. The rather depressing thing is,I agree entirely with their point of view, but since Rugbyists seem to want to make everything into an 'us and them' situation with soccer fans, I am forced to put up an argument which I do not fully support. Oh well, all good practice for Court, I suppose.
Oh, and who might the Tache be? Anyone I've heard of? PM if it's more in his interest.

Matt.

He loves his footy (we are off to Morecambe tomorrow) but like me, thinks they are pampered and should give over with the histrionics. And No Matt, you wont have heard of him, he's played at a good level (Sheffield Eagles and Doncaster reserves) without breaking into the 1st teams, but he's been paid for playing (at 17), captained his University to an unbeaten season and at 22 he's currently playing for his club side that sits unbeaten at the top of their league. He (like me, remember I played when proper contact was allowed as well as a bit of both Rugby Union and league) is embarrassed by the way todays so called superstars fall down if the wind changes.
Football 'hard men' wouldn't last two minutes in a rugby match (or lacrosse!).
Remember Vinnie Jones fancying a bash at Rugby League? His club (think it was Chelsea, but dont quote me) wouldn't let him even train with them fearing for his life! :Oops:

[cambgull]

Remember Vinnie Jones fancying a bash at Rugby League? His club (think it was Chelsea, but dont quote me) wouldn't let him even train with them fearing for his life! :Oops:

I remember that, I think he was at Wimbledon at the time and they told him no. They said they wouldn't allow him incase he got hurt. In reality it was because they KNEW he'd get hurt as knowing Vinny, he'd get given a hefty challenge and then get up and start a fight!

[Trojan 67]

What I wanna know is how many critics on diving fare when marked on their mah huff diving.

And no comments from Mr Beard please as in my recent experience I've only come across Brazilians.

Mind you didn't Pele sport a beard once ?

It soon disappeared when defoliation became the fashion.