Accrington Stanley v Torquay United - 2/3/13

[AustrianAndyGull]

You are right to a point Steve, i happen to think our current squad should nowhere near where they are now and my gripe is that we never look dangerous. Sooner or later we will have to win games of football and we of course could do that ala Exeter, getting a penno and hanging on or defending for 90 minutes and Saah nodding in a corner. To win 3 or 4 games in this scenario is highly unlikely therefore we need another approach. To attack teams and score some goals. We have seen from the Wycombe game and others that mostly 1 isn't going to be enough so with the emphasis on needing to start scoring and getting the strikers confidence up again what do we do? Continue to be cautious. If Knill knocks out 2 or 3 wins in the next month or so as is by playing this way then all i can do is hold my hands up and curse my fragile faith, and at the same time regret doubting Alan but as there is no reason to suggest this will happen given on field performances then i would have thought a radical new approach is required. Trying to outscore the opposition.

[stevegull]

I'm enjoying the discussion tonight.

I'm not sure Knill is actively trying to play defensive. Or what I mean is he might have been forced to make some defensive decisions as he tries to get to grips with the job at hand. It's a lot better for Knill personally to learn about the squad while he picks a few points on the road. Once he knows about players he might be more comfortable chucking more men forward to go for the three points. This is why Angus Macdonald's apparent good display is even more pleasing. Knill may feel more comfortable with putting men forward and not having to defence the heart of the defence more.

[Modgull]

I definitely agree with Nick that we are in no way as bad as 05/06 or countless other seasons when we've flirted with the drop. I don't actually think our team is that bad and I think they SHOULD be a mid-table team. For some reason we have slumped badly and something obviously needs to change but it's not as bad as previous seasons when you genuinely look at the personnel and think "Who here is good enough?"

It's all about opinions though, others will probably think that there aren't many good players actually in the team. I don't think that's what Andy thinks though? He appears to be griping about the system we use which obviously doesn't suit every player at the club. Hopefully Knill will tinker with the system and reap some rewards before the season is out.

Most relegations are due to factors other than just the quality of the players available. Behind the scenes problems, whether they be financial, ownership or managerial in nature, are far more likely to bring about a drop.

In 2005/6 we had ownership problems, this year we have managerial problems.

We can only guess how disruptive the Ling absence and the interim nature of Knill's appointment has been. We have been desperately unlucky but the Board seems to believe that it would be unfair to terminate Ling's contract whilst he is sick and so we have this totally unsatisfactory situation where everyone knows that Knill is only nominally in charge.

I believe this is why we have had no "new broom" impact from Knill's appointment and I also believe that other Boards would have taken a different view of the absence of their manager. If Fletcher had gone sick just before the axe fell do we really believe Argyle would have said to Sheridan "Hello mate, we want you to keep us up but we're not giving you the permanent job!"

[AustrianAndyGull]

Again Steve, the points you are making all make perfect sense and it is good for Knill to 'feel' his way into the job but my argument is that there are 11 games left and he isn't afforded that time. In an ideal world he could take his time and oversee things the way he wants but IMO now it's all about getting wins on the board by whatever means possible and i don't see how making the bizarre substitutions he has is helping to do that.

[AustrianAndyGull]

Also i don't understand all this sentiment about being 'fair' to Knill. To my knowledge, the bloke has come in to do a bloody difficult job admittedly, but he has understood this and accepted the challenge. The stories about him realising how difficult it is to recruit short term loans down to Torquay are worrying but he gets judged on 14 games. He has had 3 and we still lack that elusive win. We need more wins and games are running out. We do not look like winning. Knill might be documenting everything there is to know about us and suddenly clicks things into place, i don't know. If he is he needs to start doing it now before more games go to waste.

I simply do not wish to imagine life as a Torquay fan back in the BSP. Just hold that thought for a minute and then tell me you are still 100% behind waiting tactics. The BSP is now ultra competetive and if we go down we will be down there for a very, very, very, very long time but many of you guys like the waiting game so what's years and years to you lot?

I am panicking, i am panicking because we cannot win football matches and i do not want to be playing pub teams next season.

[brucie]

I think panicking is a pretty fair assumption really. Having seen the Port Vale and Wycombe games the standout feature is the lack of any clearcut chances being created by the team. I am not in the "Benyon is hopeless" camp at all - as a loan signing he is probably as good as we are likely to get. He should be getting sharper every game and a Howe-Benyon-Bodin strike force must be a good combination at this level. Why then are we looking so toothless?
Is it the lack of creativity from midfield? Not sure of the answer but we actually looked more dangerous in the first half against of Rotherham with Yeoman making some dangerous runs from midfield.
I feel that Plymouth, although having some tough games have a fair squad and will not go down. It will probably come down to us accumalating more points than Accrington and Wimbledon.
For me the Oxford match is the crucial game. Win that one and we are over 40 points and possibly can see the finishing line in the distance.
Lose that one - we will be in the bottom two and in deep shit.
Can we beat Oxford? - I have got to say I can't see it. They will bring plenty of fans and are not a bad team at all. As things stand I cannot see us winning a game at all - and there lies the problem.

[Bitchie Renault]

Please explain what 'the good' is currently. I fail to see it.

We play our football in a lovely part of the country.
A ground with one brand new and three relatively new stands.
A great social club.
A manager (if he returns) who is honest, popular in the game, hard working, has made great signings and produced some miracle results on a paulty budget.
Owners who are not foreign charlatans here for a quick buck but who care about the club.
We've never been in administration or suffered points deduction, the scurge of modern football.
New training facilities.
Two decent centre halves.
A top quality centre forward.
Some raw but potentially quality young players like Bodin, Thompson, Yeoman, Craig, Macklin.
A great away following.
Lots of recent relative success and magic memories.
To name a few....

But of course you can make a case that football is just a results business. Players get lambasted and managers get sacked every week because they fail to win games. If you ONLY look at the result of the last few weeks then for sure things look terrible, but this is a club with 114 year history not 114 days. ALL football clubs results go up and down in quality at some point. The important thing is to keep supporting. I'm not happy about the current situation, I feel we may go down, but I would rather be us than several other clubs who are in a much less stable position, have a more potted history or exist in geographical blackholes.

Why I offered my congratulations to the new poster EdGull's comments was that he showed a level heads and honest assessments rather than the drama queens approach and hysterical reactions some others seem to favour. Some fans on here are going massively overboard in their perma-whinging and it has so far produced nothing, not one solitary thing. Infact, all it is doing is fanning the flames of discontent and making things worse. You can moan all day and all night about the status but it won't change anything, all you can do in this moment is support the club to the best of your abilities, the time to take stock will be in the summer.

So Hector, Torquay are in this predicament and I guess you must be concerned, do you have any solutions? do you think you just pay your money, are entitled to entertainment and success and everything should just be better than it is? or do you think it best to just complain and point out the negatives?

[Scott Brehaut]

Bitchie - just one point.

We suffered a points deduction when we fielded an illegible player a couple of seasons ago.

[SuperNickyWroe]

I'm enjoying the discussion tonight.

I'm not sure Knill is actively trying to play defensive. Or what I mean is he might have been forced to make some defensive decisions as he tries to get to grips with the job at hand. It's a lot better for Knill personally to learn about the squad while he picks a few points on the road. Once he knows about players he might be more comfortable chucking more men forward to go for the three points. This is why Angus Macdonald's apparent good display is even more pleasing. Knill may feel more comfortable with putting men forward and not having to defence the heart of the defence more.

dont talk w.....

only joking steve!
its nice to see a bit of enthusiasum on here isnt it???!!! =D

i dont think knill is either - just the fear factor of the players not wanting to lose another game.

[stevegull]

Hahaha! Leave it out SNW! It's like you're following me around looking for another 'wet' comment!!

And you are right about the 'fear factor'. It's probably the main reason we're failing to create. When a midfielder recieves the ball he wants to get rid of it quickly and simply as no one wants to be caught in possession and cost us some points. No one is taking the time to actually probe for an opening or try something inventive in attack. Eunan was fantastic at it, just opening his body out and happy to drive at defences.

They need to be brave. Not just in the tackle but on the ball. And WANTING the ball. Players will inevitably want to hide when we're doing as badly as we are but that isn't going to help our plight.

[hector]

We play our football in a lovely part of the country.
A ground with one brand new and three relatively new stands.
A great social club.
A manager (if he returns) who is honest, popular in the game, hard working, has made great signings and produced some miracle results on a paulty budget.
Owners who are not foreign charlatans here for a quick buck but who care about the club.
We've never been in administration or suffered points deduction, the scurge of modern football.
New training facilities.
Two decent centre halves.
A top quality centre forward.
Some raw but potentially quality young players like Bodin, Thompson, Yeoman, Craig, Macklin.
A great away following.
Lots of recent relative success and magic memories.
To name a few....

But of course you can make a case that football is just a results business. Players get lambasted and managers get sacked every week because they fail to win games. If you ONLY look at the result of the last few weeks then for sure things look terrible, but this is a club with 114 year history not 114 days. ALL football clubs results go up and down in quality at some point. The important thing is to keep supporting. I'm not happy about the current situation, I feel we may go down, but I would rather be us than several other clubs who are in a much less stable position, have a more potted history or exist in geographical blackholes.

Why I offered my congratulations to the new poster EdGull's comments was that he showed a level heads and honest assessments rather than the drama queens approach and hysterical reactions some others seem to favour. Some fans on here are going massively overboard in their perma-whinging and it has so far produced nothing, not one solitary thing. Infact, all it is doing is fanning the flames of discontent and making things worse. You can moan all day and all night about the status but it won't change anything, all you can do in this moment is support the club to the best of your abilities, the time to take stock will be in the summer.

So Hector, Torquay are in this predicament and I guess you must be concerned, do you have any solutions? do you think you just pay your money, are entitled to entertainment and success and everything should just be better than it is? or do you think it best to just complain and point out the negatives?

Explain to me how being concerned about a run of 3 wins since October, a run of around 6 games where we threw away points after the 85th minute, followed by a run of 7 consecutive defeats, a team that cannot score and have sunk like a bolder to the the midst of a relegation battle we very reasonably look like losing, the prospect of non-league football and what it means for our club etc etc, explain exactly how being worried about all of those things is thinking you are entitled to success. Your list of positives really do not add comfort to the prospect of what relegation will mean to TUFC and the absolute horror that very little appears to be being done to avert the squandering of all you list.

I'm not convinced I would place Martin Ling in that list of positives. Without wanting to be disrespectful to a poorly man, it is his team and tactics that have sown the seeds for this demise. It's not like we were winning games before he was taken ill.

It is not up to me to come up with solutions - I have my own job and life with enough problems to solve. TUFC need to do theirs. Mine would be to recruit some new players which the chairman made a big point of promising some time ago but to no avail. The manager we recruited because of his 'contacts' seems to have turned up nothing so I'm not holding my breath.

So, no, in short, the list of positives you note are small crumbs of comfort when compared to the prospect of non-league oblivion.

[cambgull]

Andy, long deep breaths and count to 10!

EdGull, welcome to the forum. There is quite a bit of negativity here at the moment and probably quite rightly, we are dead last on the form table, although its nice to see a bit of optimism for once. Do keep posting though, apart from in recent times, its generally a very good community to be part of with some intelligent and well thought of people contributing.

[Bitchie Renault]

Bitchie - just one point.

We suffered a points deduction when we fielded an illegible player a couple of seasons ago.

In reply to your one point (about the two points ) I was refering more to the fact that we have never entered administration and so avoided the potentially crippling 10, 20 or 30 points deduction that can occur. Just look at Luton, a historically much bigger club than us, but they have never recovered from their 30 point deduction 5 years ago. And when you think of the relative success we have experienced in that time I am sure there are many Luton fans who would swap our position for theirs in an instant. It's another thing to be grateful for :~D

[Bitchie Renault]

Explain to me how being concerned about a run of 3 wins since October, a run of around 6 games where we threw away points after the 85th minute, followed by a run of 7 consecutive defeats, a team that cannot score and have sunk like a bolder to the the midst of a relegation battle we very reasonably look like losing, the prospect of non-league football and what it means for our club etc etc, explain exactly how being worried about all of those things is thinking you are entitled to success. Your list of positives really do not add comfort to the prospect of what relegation will mean to TUFC and the absolute horror that very little appears to be being done to avert the squandering of all you list.

I'm not convinced I would place Martin Ling in that list of positives. Without wanting to be disrespectful to a poorly man, it is his team and tactics that have sown the seeds for this demise. It's not like we were winning games before he was taken ill.

It is not up to me to come up with solutions - I have my own job and life with enough problems to solve. TUFC need to do theirs. Mine would be to recruit some new players which the chairman made a big point of promising some time ago but to no avail. The manager we recruited because of his 'contacts' seems to have turned up nothing so I'm not holding my breath.

So, no, in short, the list of positives you note are small crumbs of comfort when compared to the prospect of non-league oblivion.

Hector, you're right to be concerned about our form, if you read my posts you will see I am equally concerned, I just try to do it in a way that doesn't bash the hell out of every element of the club. The problem I have is the constantly sniping at the board, players, managers is doing absolutely nothing. Infact all it is doing is creating an atmosphere of even greater disharmony and that in itself is less likely to encourage a positive outcome on the pitch.

The time now is for the fans to support the team, have a little faith in the fact that although many people around the club have serious question marks against them, we have to beleive that they can be professional enough over the next 11 games. And for me that means, the board providing funds for a couple of loan players, the players to play to the best of their ability and the manager to recognise potential signings, bring them in as well as come up with tactics, selections, formations, team-bonding and encouragement to get us enough points to stay up. If one or more of those elements fail then we will probably go down and some/all of those people's positions at the club will be seriously questioned and I will be first in line demanding answers.

Talking of negatively, many on here have found fault with the fact that we didn't win at Accrington or play with a more gung-ho adventurous spirit. Well to me that is a negative point of view and has achieved nothing. I'd rather look at it from the the point of view that:
The draw stopped the run of crippling defeats, a potential turning point.
Accrington is a horrible journey/place/team/ground/set of fans so to come away unbeaten is an achievement in itself.
It is the first time we have avoided defeat at their ground in the modern era.
We kept a clean sheet. (11 out of 16 visiting teams had failed to do that this season)

It's not as good as a win but it's a starting point, something to build on. Ask anyone who has had success in life or in football and every single one of them will tell you, you get nowhere with a negative attitude, you have to believe. Positive input combined with hard work, skill and a bit of luck will always be produce a better outcome rather than just bleating, bitchng and moaning.