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The BBC falsely describes Islam as a religion of peace. It is not. Islam means 'submission to Allah'.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06 ... rk-attack/

According to Islam, Allah dictated the truth to Muhammad, "the perfect man." Hence, whoever denies the Koran, denies Allah. And Allah leaves no ambiguity about what he wants. Here are a few quotes from the Quran:
Surah 8 verse 60: "Prepare to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah."
Surah 47 verse 4: "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks".
Surah 4 verse 89: "So take not friends from the ranks of the unbelievers, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them."
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4674 ... ers-speech

The London Bridge/Borough Market attackers were Muslims.
The Manchester bomber was a Muslim.
The Westminster attacker was a Muslim.
The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim.
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims.
The Fort Hood shooter was a Muslim.
The USS Cole bombers were Muslims.
The "Underwear Bomber" was a Muslim.
The Madrid train bombers were Muslims.
The Times Square bomber was a Muslim.
The Bali nightclub bombers were Muslims.
The London subway bombers were Muslims...
The Moscow theater attackers were Muslims.
The Boston Marathon bombers were Muslims.
The Iranian Embassy takeover was by Muslims.
The Pan-Am Flight#103 bombers were Muslims.
The Air France Entebbe hijackers were Muslims.
The Beirut US Embassy bombers were Muslims.
The Libyan US Embassy attack was by a Muslim.
The Buenos Aires suicide bombers were Muslims.
The Kenyan US Embassy bombers were Muslims.
The Israeli Olympic Team attackers were Muslims.
The Saudi Khobar Towers bombers were Muslims.
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims.
The Beslan Russian school attackers were Muslims.
The Achille Lauro cruise ship attackers were Muslims.
The 1993 World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims.
The Bombay and Mumbai India attackers were Muslims.
The September 11th, 2001, airplane hijackers were Muslims.

It will of course be said that those terrorist groups such as ISIS have extreme beliefs of hatred and violence that have little to do with what most Muslims believe, and it's true that most Muslims are ordinary decent peaceful people. But the reality is that large numbers of Muslims, even in the Western world, hold anti-Western views and ideals that fit well with the modus operandi of terrorist groups. They are taught these by the Koran, by their Imams, and by teachers in their madrasas.

The real problem is not the majority of Muslims, but the religion of Islam itself. And It's up to the Muslims to put their own house in order. If they don't, reactions to the problem, exemplified by the Finsbury Park attack, will become more frequent. So it's also up to us to look out for potential anti-Muslim threats, and report them to the authorities. Most of all, our politicians must end the madness of 'political correctness' which works against solutions to the problem.

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem

MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS (Shia, Sunni) = BIG PROBLEM

Gullscorer wrote: 20 Jun 2017, 07:44 The real problem is not the majority of Muslims, but the religion of Islam itself. And It's up to the Muslims to put their own house in order. If they don't, reactions to the problem, exemplified by the Finsbury Park attack, will become more frequent. So it's also up to us to look out for potential anti-Muslim threats, and report them to the authorities. Most of all, our politicians must end the madness of 'political correctness' which works against solutions to the problem.

The Finsbury Park 'attack' was not terrorism as such
it was the madness of an attention seeker

we teach our kids to respect, tolerate & accommodate everyone in our community

Gullscorer; I know not who you are but this board seems to be a one man soap box for your rants and whilst not wishing to participate in a never ending dialogue with you I am moved to respond to your dangerous and misinformed diatribe this morning.........

Neither do I know where you live, but I'll tell you now the events to which you refer happened right in the midst of the community that my four children live in with their mother, a community in which I move and actively participate on a daily basis and have diligently worked for years on programmes of inter faith/cultural cohesion, respect and positivity. I choose the world of football to exercise that desire to bring people together with a positive structure in which they learn to respect and tolerate one another's different religions, beliefs and practices. Your 'advice' for "Muslims to put their own house in order"; "reactions to the problem, exemplified by the Finsbury Park attack becoming more frequent" and "ending the madness of 'political correctness' which works against solutions to the problem" are shameful and inflammatory.


our schools are fully integrated and harmonious

Our schools are harmonious and especially all inclusive and integrated; our local football club Arsenal run the most impressive and wide reaching programmes of social and cultural inclusion I have ever seen. For the past ten years the Finsbury Park mosque has been a community preaching against the evils of radicalisation and fundamentalism and nowhere in this country would you find a community so awfully aware of the evils and dangers of extremism therein after the nightmare of Abu Hamza.

The local MP ~ who lives just 200 yards from Sunday night's atrocity ~ Jeremy Corbyn ~ is a good man; totally revered in the community for his exhaustive and never ending dedication for inclusion for all, politics for the many and social justice for all.

Your rants against Masjids are borne of ignorance...it was the local masjid to where my youngest two children and I took our contributions to the Grenfell Tower relief programme last week ~ neither caring nor expressing any wish to which faith or culture those little donations were distributed. It was just my eight year old and my five year old being encouraged and shown the way to love and care for all in our community whatever their faith or culture, ethnicity or place of domesticity.

Your singling out of the faith of Islam as not being a faith of peace is one of bigotry and further ignorance; The New Testament focuses heavily on cheek-turning and peace-making.  But there are passages in the Old Testament, e.g. that very much mirror what you choose to highlight from the Q'uran......

Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there be found among  you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or  woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God,  in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun,  or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed  that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

The Christian relationship to the Old Testament is kind of confusing.  It's often cited as the Old Law that Jesus came to fulfill, relieving (for example) the dietary requirements, and lets you treat passages like this one as no longer relevant.  But Christians often cite Old Testament laws (for example, on homosexuality) so it can be a little hard to tell precisely what they believe.

There are also New Testament passages cited as justification to kill non-believers, e.g.

Luke 19:27:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

As well as Matthew 10:34:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Ignorant far right inspired rantings such as yours are taken up by idiot attention seekers like Darren Osborne ~ described by one of his neighbours in Cardiff as a 'total c**t all his life' ~ breeding ignorance, prejudice and potential violence. Please stop!

My good friend Samira was one of four local residents interviewed live on Channel 4 News last night (her phone footage of the horrible aftermath of the attack had been used by the TV companies) and I guess all would assume the afro haired, light skinned black woman to be a 'Muslim'. She is not, she is Orthodox (Coptic) Christian bellying her Ethiopian heritage but it was neither necessary to mention that nor does it matter when applied to the authenticity of her story.

Ten people were injured ~ including two who were disabled ~ and one man has since died. Two of those injured (including one young woman) have horrendous life changing injuries. Osborne who was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder has been further arrested on suspicion of the commission, preparation or instigation of terrorism including murder and attempted murder. I would very much doubt that it is anything more than 'one man terrorisim' if indeed it is. He owes his life right now to the local Imam Mohamad Mahmoud who has said he and a 'group of brothers' had managed to 'extinguish any flames of mob rule' as members of the public attempted to hurt the alleged terrorist 'from every angle'. He added that, despite tensions running high, the suspect ~ who is white ~ had come away 'unscathed' and remained 'calm and silent' as he was arrested by officers. Police are currently searching addresses in Cardiff.......he came from Cardiff, not from within the community and must have driven past the horrifying edifce of Grenfell Tower as he made his way from the M4 to Finsbury Park. Just think on that and yet he was harbouring evil intent and execution in his warped mind.

 Mr Mahmoud furthertold the BBC: 'By God's grace we managed to surround him and to protect him from any harm. We stopped all forms of attack and abuse towards him that were coming from every angle.' Mr Mahmoud said that, while the chaos unfolded, a police car drove past which he and some others managed to flag down. 'We told them the situation,' he continued. 'We said "he is restrained, he mowed people down with a van, there is a mob attempting to hurt him, if you don't take him God forbid he might be seriously hurt. We pushed people away from him until he was safely taken by police into custody and put in the back of the van. It wasn't me alone ~ there was a group of brothers who were calm and collected and managed to calm people down and to extinguish any flames of anger or mob rule that would've taken charge had this group of mature brothers not stepped in.'


Men of peace saving a fellow human being from a public lynching regardless of his faith or otherwise.
I am not of any faith but prefer to regard myself as an agnostic with neither the faith nor knowledge of whether God actually exists or not but it doesn't stop me treating and regarding those of all faiths and those without with due respect, reverence and tolerance and I would ask you to do the same.

Not sure I agree entirely with Merse, nor Gullscorer for that matter but that is one cracking reply.

Southampton Gull wrote: 20 Jun 2017, 16:35 Not sure I agree entirely with Merse, nor Gullscorer for that matter but that is one cracking reply.

Agree with you about the cracking reply. One of the best postings I have ever read on any type of forum.

its a great reply spoken from knowledge and experience from somebody actually in the middle of it all best posting ive seen on the non footie forum

Merse and I usually agree to disagree on football matters, but that is one hell of a reply to Gullscorer's diatribe from someone who lives and works in the area. You have my admiration, Merse. Without wishing to resurrect old arguments, I would say to Gullscorer - where has all this hatred originated ? The Americans armed the Taliban in Afghanistan in a proxy war against the Russians, we sided with America in an illegal war (in the opinion of millions worldwide) in Iraq and we were involved in bringing down Gadaffi in Libya which is now a hotbed of terrorism. And I haven't even touched on Syria. To quote another biblical verse - "Ye shall reap what ye sow". Boy, have we sown hatred in the Middle East.

Cracking reply.

tomogull wrote: 20 Jun 2017, 22:20 The Americans armed the Taliban in Afghanistan in a proxy war against the Russians, we sided with America in an illegal war (in the opinion of millions worldwide) in Iraq and we were involved in bringing down Gadaffi in Libya which is now a hotbed of terrorism. And I haven't even touched on Syria. To quote another biblical verse - "Ye shall reap what ye sow". Boy, have we sown hatred in the Middle East.

Now you're talking. Hard to see past the terrorist acts carried out by successive western governments when all is said and done.

History takes us back much further to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which was a single paragraph in a letter dated 2nd November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. It read:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

The text of the letter was published in the press one week later, on 9th November 1917. The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into both the Sèvres peace treaty with the Ottoman Empire, and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library. The issuance of the declaration had many long-lasting consequences and there remains ongoing controversy whether the Balfour Declaration contradicts earlier promises the British may have made to Hussein ibn Ali al-Hashimi, the Sharif of Mecca, in the McMahon–Hussein correspondence. There has been conflict over this dictat in the Middle East ever since but we must go even further back than that........

We can trawl back through the Crusades ~ the series of religious wars sanctioned by the Latin Church in the medieval period between 1095 & 1291 ~ aimed at recovering the Holy Land from Islamic rule which followed and most latterly coincided with the Rashidun Caliphate (632–661), the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750) and the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258). The fourth major caliphate, the Ottoman Caliphate, established from Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire in 1517, was a manifestation whereby the Ottoman rulers claimed caliphal authority. During the history of Islam, several other Muslim states, almost all of them hereditary monarchies, have claimed to be caliphates.

Anyone who has travelled in Spain can testify to the heritage of the Umayyad Caliphate of Córdoba (929–1031) The rule of the Caliphate (from Damascus) is considered as the heyday of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula, before it fragmented into various taifas in the 11th century. This period was characterized by a remarkable flourishing in technology, trade and culture; many of the masterpieces of al-Andalus were constructed in this period and we enjoy them to this day.........the Alhambra Palace in Granada with it's integral Medina (town) and fortress being the best example and the period particularly brought a level of intellect and education to this side of the European continent never seen before or since.

The Islamic dominance of Iberia continued until 1212, when Muhammad al-Nasir (1199–1214) was defeated at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa in the Sierra Morena by an alliance of the Christian princes of Castile, Aragon, Navarre and Portugal. Nearly all of the Moorish dominions in Iberia were lost soon after, with the great Moorish cities of Córdoba and Seville falling to the Christians in 1236 and 1248, respectively.

It all goes a lot further back than uneducated idiots like Darren Osborne could ever dream of or retain in their tiny minds. It's all part of our history and heritage and today is merely the continuation of yesterday and will continue tomorrow.

I'm sorry but it's not a cracking reply at all. It only serves to cloud the issue. All Gullscorer has done is post up facts. Since when were facts insightful to hatred.

I believe all Gullscorer is trying to do is educate people to the issue we are facing, as knowledge is the only way to be able to have a truthful conversation, and the only hope we have of avoiding endless violence like this for the coming years is to have the difficult conversations and stop skirting around the issue.

No one i know, who understands the issues, along similar line to what Gullscorer has posted, wants Violence.

I believe that Merse btpir completely stands for the same, peace and a wish for all this to stop. And whilst he maybe doing a great job of helping with integration and building a community, this doesn't negate the bigger issue unfortunately. What it does show, is that it is possible, and that gives us all hope.

So, i'll highlight one thing from that post that i believe is actually helping to create a further divide and not to resolve the issue. Using the flaws of Christianity to justify the flaws of Islam don't make it ok. I'm not religious and i believe all religions are the cause of all hatred and are the most divisive and violent abominations still on this planet today. The evidence is plenty. j

The difference between the british culture (which for arguments sake we'll say leans heavily toward christian practices, ie christmas and easter) and those who follow Islam, are mainly that whilst there has been a lot of reform in christianity here over the centuries, there has been none in Islam, And most indiginous english people don;t care much for religion anyway, so it really is iirrelevent. However, the vast majority of muslims follow Islam with a real focus and no matter what any liberal minded indiviual says, this islamic culture is counter to our western way of life. It has been said countless times by our previous leaders, and ignored. And now we have daily attacks occurring across Europe. Then one nut job (and in this case, it actually is a lone wolf nut job) attack a mosque and the Left go ballistic.

What will it take for people to wake up to reality? Another 50 bombs on UK soil before enough is enough, and the left open their minds just slightly enough to take on board a few truths?

https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/06/18/h ... day-march/

http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2017 ... s-streets/

This Hezbollah march took place, in London, on the same day of the finsbury park attack, but of course this has nothing to do with dividing people and driving towards the inevitable revenge attack, according to JK Rowling, it's Nigel Farage's fault.

And it is the ludicrous attitude that is given the mainstream platform to speak and it is this ignorance which is driving the majority of us insane.

"Merse and I usually agree to disagree on football matters, but that is one hell of a reply to Gullscorer's diatribe from someone who lives and works in the area. You have my admiration, Merse. Without wishing to resurrect old arguments, I would say to Gullscorer - where has all this hatred originated ? The Americans armed the Taliban in Afghanistan in a proxy war against the Russians, we sided with America in an illegal war (in the opinion of millions worldwide) in Iraq and we were involved in bringing down Gadaffi in Libya which is now a hotbed of terrorism. And I haven't even touched on Syria. To quote another biblical verse - "Ye shall reap what ye sow". Boy, have we sown hatred in the Middle East."

Your logic here suggests you believe the Manchester bombing was justified.

Cuck!

WestLondonYellow wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 13:20 ........most indiginous english people don;t care much for religion anyway, so it really is iirrelevent. However, the vast majority of muslims follow Islam with a real focus and no matter what any liberal minded indiviual says, this islamic culture is counter to our western way of life. What will it take for people to wake up to reality? Another 50 bombs on UK soil before enough is enough, and the left open their minds just slightly enough to take on board a few truths?

......and the 'home truths' are?

that Islam s incompatable with indigenous English culture? It depends on your mindset and I guess mine is formed from being in and amongst the most diverse and communally harmonious multi faith/multi cultural community imaginable.

Therein lays the problem as regards London, parts of London and the nation outside; it's the same with Brexit too isn't it and maybe calls for London to be a 'nation state' are not so daft after all.

I cannot accept that the way forward is to be more divided; less integrated and especially not after the living proof that if you look at youngsters playing together you see nothing but harmony and a common interest in what they are doing rather than in what they are wearing, what language their mummy speaks when on the phone or whether or not they go to Mosque, church, a temple or synagogue.

'Indigenous English people' are rather a minority in the area where I am referring to and even where I live a short distance away there are more Irish, Greek, Polish and Balkan 'whites' than indigenous English and only last weekend I was addressed in Polish first by an assumptive girl who obviously thought 'white Caucasian=Polish' rather than English, It bothered me not a jot and we carried on talking in English as my Polish doesn't extend much beyond 'sklep' and Cześć; thankyou by the way is the same in either language!

As I said before I am agnostic so practising any religion is irrelevant to me but I will fight tooth and nail for the rights of anyone on earth to practice what they wish and worship as they desire. We cannot sit in an ivory tower and dictate what anyone who lives with us thinks, desires, acts out their life or worships.

"that Islam s incompatable with indigenous English culture? It depends on your mindset and I guess mine is formed from being in and amongst the most diverse and communally harmonious multi faith/multi cultural community imaginable."

It doesn't depend on your mindset as long as you live in reality. Look, don't assume i'm against multi culturalism, multi culturalism has not failed in my eyes, i cannot think of another minority community that has failed to integrate other than the islamic community. In fact, are you aware that the islamic community not only hold us in very low regard but also all other cultural minorities, again the evidence is not only in the UK but can be found across the world.

You say that everything is fine in your community, whilst there are islamic terrorist attacks taking place on almost daily basis across europe and we've had 3 major ones in the UK in the last 3 months!

"Therein lays the problem as regards London, parts of London and the nation outside; it's the same with Brexit too isn't it and maybe calls for London to be a 'nation state' are not so daft after all. "

First off, if you think you're talking to a little englander you're wrong, I'm well travelled and i lived in London for nearly 20 years, and i've seen the good and the bad side of multiculturalism. I have a lot of frineds who grew up in othe rmajor cities like Nottingham, Coventry etc and they have an even more educated viewpoint on the current state of play and Islam's lack of will to integrate and incompatibility.
You talk with almost condescention towards someone who you believe is misinformed and take the high ground becasuse you live in London, but in fact this only highlights your ignorance.
Bringing brexit into this only goes to further highlight your disdain for your own country, and also lack of understanding. I assume you want open borders?

"I cannot accept that the way forward is to be more divided; less integrated and especially not after the living proof that if you look at youngsters playing together you see nothing but harmony and a common interest in what they are doing rather than in what they are wearing, what language their mummy speaks when on the phone or whether or not they go to Mosque, church, a temple or synagogue."

Youngsters, yes but these youngsters have not yet grown into adults and been indoctrinated into their system fully, all kids are innocent, but the ideology we face is moulding those innocent kids into something hateful as adults, of course, not all muslims, but a lot more than is being admitted. Disagree all you like, but the daily attacks tell the truth. And its not just bombs and vans, look at the grooming scandal present across the whole country.
Do you know why Sunni and Shia mulsims kill each other and cannot get on?

"'Indigenous English people' are rather a minority in the area where I am referring to and even where I live a short distance away there are more Irish, Greek, Polish and Balkan 'whites' than indigenous English and only last weekend I was addressed in Polish first by an assumptive girl who obviously thought 'white Caucasian=Polish' rather than English, It bothered me not a jot and we carried on talking in English as my Polish doesn't extend much beyond 'sklep' and Cześć; thankyou by the way is the same in either language!"

Thats great, and again, i want to reiterate, i have no issue at all with multiculturalism, my ex is Polish and my daughter is half poilsh, and we met in London.

"As I said before I am agnostic so practising any religion is irrelevant to me but I will fight tooth and nail for the rights of anyone on earth to practice what they wish and worship as they desire. We cannot sit in an ivory tower and dictate what anyone who lives with us thinks, desires, acts out their life or worships."

I agree that people who want to practice faith should be allowed to, but when they are taught in the mosque or madrasa to hate us, our way of life, and not to respect us in the street, etc etc, and the result is jihadis going of to fight for ISIS, then be allowed back into the country to kill here, where do you draw the line. If Islam wants to avoid all out conflict then it needs to take a look at reform. there are decent humans, of islamic faith, who are calling for reform and telling the truth of the situation, but they are not being given a proper platform to speak. Then decent minded people like yourself, who, although immersed in a multicutlaural community, get the wrong impression and look to apply a more so called politcally correct viewpoint. I'm sorry, but Islam and its teachings allow for thought processes and actions that are worse than the Nazis and if these truths dont start getting acknowledged sharpish the we are going to see more blood on the streets from both corners, and no I don't want that one bit.

I neither hold this country in disdain nor wish to engage in constant too-ing and fro-ing in lengthy debate over the 'state of the nation'. There has been too much tragedy and reaping of the policies that have put economics before humanity to leave me anything but shaken and saddened and the assumption that Muslims 'are taught in the mosque or madrasa to hate us, our way of life, and not to respect us in the street' is a gross misrepresentation giving the impression that this happens in all mosques or madrasa.

I agree with you; Islam and its teachings allow for thought processes and actions to manifest in the most atrocious ways but the same can be applied to Christianity too. That is the abomination of religion when manipulated by evil and manipulative people. For every one of them there are many more who reject and condemn that thought process and when you say that you 'cannot think of another minority community that has failed to integrate other than the Islamic community' you are again giving the impression that this accounts for the entire Islamic community ~ I disagree with that and we'll have to agree to differ.

You ask me if I am 'aware that the islamic community not only hold us in very low regard but also all other cultural minorities' I am aware of that thought process in some people; yes. But for every one of them there are far more who do not fall prey to that indoctrination.

We live in very troubled and insecure times, and (as a country) are reaping the seeds we have sown over centuries of over involvement in overseas' life for the benefit of ourselves. We have to remain half-full and not half-empty. There are many things I see, hear and experience which could paint a black picture if I wanted it to. But the actualite is that I live amongst it and will always do my bit to contribute to a harmonious and respectful community. For me there is no other way.