Hartlepool United v Torquay United - 1/3/14

[Sunnysideup]

It isn't really the supporters fault that the crowds are so low. Saying that we "only" got three to four thousand people when we were doing well is all well and good but thats substantially more than we are getting now.
The reason that we got such a dire crowd against Burton was because of our pathetic performance against Accrington.
Had we won against them we wouldn't have dropped 500 people on the attendance against Burton.
Similarly our 3-0 defeat yesterday will probably ensure a sub 2000 gate next Saturday.
If the board and manager provide a team who are all but relegated with a quarter of the season to go what do they expect.
The buck stops there. In all fairness to Aldershot gull he has every reason to be upset - lets face it getting hammered by an average side in a game we had to win just isn't good enough.

Probably as much to do with being a cold-ish midweek winter night with live football on the telly?
Last seasons two sub 2000 crowds (Rotherham and Wycombe) were both midweekers in February, following a home Saturday match which people may not (or may) have budgeted for. Very few visiting fans either..

[hector]

A number of posters appear to be looking to protect Hargreaves with quotes about the ...."sh1t left by previous manager"...."CH record no worse than Knill"....those points are valid and acknowledged.

BUT...when you are appointing a replacement for someone who is considered to be unable to provide the required level of success, isn't the most important consideration of a new appointment that the new he/she is expected to perform ABOVE the level of the outgoing member of staff, with the exisitng tools available to them ?

I find it difficult to believe that the Board honestly considered Hargreaves CV as strong enough to provide the experience required. If they did that due diligence and can, hand on heart, confirm that amongst all the other possible candidates - giving them the benefit of the doubt there were others considered - CH had the strongest CV for the position we were in, then I apologise for my cynicism.

Given all the commentary on these boards about our financial position, I can only draw a conclusion that they went for the least expensive option (I hesitate to use the word cheap), allied to the hope that his "legend" status would encourage the floating Torbay supporter to re-enter Plainmoor on a more regular basis and help provide much needed finance that could be used to improve the "sh1t left by Knill".

I fear that gamble has backfired in a big way !

I suspect that there was an assumption that the appointment of CH would galvanise, inspire and bring the club together. I think - as most of us pointed out at the time - Hargreaves with a mentor e.g. Sturrock, would have been the most sensible solution. It would have enabled Hargreaves to resume control once the situation had been settled, in calmer times when there was no so much at stake. My fear was that Hargreaves fledgling managerial career would be over before it started by thrusting him into the fire, having never even have been in the frying pan. It wasn't fair on him to expect him to do the job of a firefighter with zero experience of being a manager, especially considering the tools he was left.

All that has happened instead, is that he already, after 7 games as a manager, has people questioning him, saying he is crap, people turning against him and he is never really going to get a chance. My view is that he is the right man for this club but perhaps at the wrong time. But he is here and I think we need to stick with him, so that he has an opportunity to build his own team in less choppy circumstances. The fact that it will be in the Conference may benefit him, because you would hope that we would have one of the better budgets in that league, although not the one Buckle had, I suspect.

There is no sense in pretending we have a chance of staying up, we may as well start planning now. I just hope - what could be our last ever Devon Derby - is not when it is all confirmed....at least let us drag Exeter down with us.

[stefano]

Stefano - why the hell do you think we are in this mess in the first place? It's because of the clown you purport is a footballing genius. The reason we are where we are is because of Alan Knill. It's not like we were setting the world alight and he was unfairly/unjustly removed and its all been downhill ever since?

If you really want to twist stats

8 games since Alan Knill was sacked have yielded 8 points; The previous 8 games the same amount of points...the rookies of Geoff Harrop and Chris Hargreaves have done no worse than the supposed 'experienced' Alan Knill. And that is with Alan Knill's team. Does not excuse how bad it is now, but don't pretend that the man who got us in this mess, was doing any better.

If you want to twist stats even more, reduce the data down to the last two games. Hargreaves 1 point, Knill zero points.

Those who lament the sacking of Ling have some basis for their misgivings. Those who think Knill was unlucky to lose his job are simply mad.

Yes I had you in mind with my last sentence Mr Hector ... not that I expected you to realise that

[hector]

Yes I had you in mind with my last sentence Mr Hector ... not that I expected you to realise that

Stefano - I know, or at least I suspect, that you are of a more senior vintage but surely senility has not taken hold just yet. Have you completely forgotten the football Alan Knill served up? Perhaps your final sentence was a bit of self-evaluation/self-reflection.

[Sunnysideup]

Stefano - I know, or at least I suspect, that you are of a more senior vintage but surely senility has not taken hold just yet. Have you completely forgotten the football Alan Knill served up? Perhaps your final sentence was a bit of self-evaluation/self-reflection.

I dont recollect us being 8 points from safety under the previous regime? Not only that, but do you really think the current football is any better than that which preceded it?

[Bomber]

Some of the comments last night are just plain daft. The board chose Hargreaves because they thought he would do a good job, and would be a popular choice. To read some of the bollox on here you would think that some folk believe that the directors are conspiring to make the club fail.

Thea has kept our club alive. Her commitment is unquestionable, and us fans should be grateful to her! The silly burglars on here moaning about lack of funds should perhaps consider putting their own money in.

Time will ultimately tell whether Chris Hargreaves turns out to be a good appointment, the selection process behind it was based on guesswork based on guesswork on who they thought would do the best job.

Also, we don't know what their criteria for selecting him was.

Regardless of how badly we played yesterday, if we had beaten Northampton and Accrington, we wouldn't be in the bottom two at present.

Our best hope now is to be in a situation whereby we need to get something out of the Wycombe game on the last day to secure our league status.

[SuperNickyWroe]

Time will ultimately tell whether Chris Hargreaves turns out to be a good appointment, the selection process behind it was based on guesswork based on guesswork on who they thought would do the best job.

Also, we don't know what their criteria for selecting him was.

Regardless of how badly we played yesterday, if we had beaten Northampton and Accrington, we wouldn't be in the bottom two at present.

Our best hope now is to be in a situation whereby we need to get something out of the Wycombe game on the last day to secure our league status.

but we didnt.........

[stefano]

Stefano - I know, or at least I suspect, that you are of a more senior vintage but surely senility has not taken hold just yet. Have you completely forgotten the football Alan Knill served up? Perhaps your final sentence was a bit of self-evaluation/self-reflection.

Apart from dementia not being something to treat so lightly, I have pointed out to you on another thread that I would rather trust the judgement of Mr Chris Wilder in regard to the experience, skills, and ability Mr Knill can bring to a struggling League 2 side, than I would yours. Mr Wilder does after all know something about football.

OPINION (Yours): Knill is the Anti-Christ and responsible for the demise of Torquay United and the crisis in the Crimea;

FACT: The experienced Mr Wilder chose Mr Knill to assist him in getting Northampton out of the relegation places. When he joined them Northampton were 6 points behind us. They are now 3 points ahead. A 9 point turnaround in such a short space of time is quite an achievement.

So .... well done Mr Knill and let's hope our bloke can get it together in the way you have at Northampton

[AustrianAndyGull]

For all the acceptance by some that our players are just crap. Take a look at the Hartlepool side that played us yesterday and then tell me that our squad is much (if any) worse.

For all those that bemoaned the fact that we seemed to have a few shots on target but didn't score yet Hartlepool had 3 or so and scored 3 then take a look at the types of chances they were. Pretty much easy. Our meanwhile were from distance, blocked or poor finishing. You can't just look at the stats and say we were unlucky again. We didn't create anything really IMO that would constitute a clear goalscoring opportunity.

First half we looked quite assured and had lots of good possession but like so many games already this season we had no ideas of what to do with it when we had it and we eventually petered out. We have scored twice or more on only two occasions in 4 months and only once come from behind to win all season and that was at Northampton in August! Therefore we have to take the lead and hang on and that is where our points will come from. Go behind and it's a draw at best. That is why we aren't good enough to stay up.

We have no worse players than many of the teams in league 2 yet we are worst on the pitch and in the league by a country mile. No point in pointing the finger, that is the situation so we have to face the consequences.

We take on Fleetwood next who haven't won for nine games in all comps, they play Newport away on Tuesday but what's the betting they kick start their season with an easy win at our place like a lot of other teams have done? Chesterfield had not won in 7 before they came to Plainmoor and guess what? Northampton couldn't really buy a win but came to Plainmoor and guess what? Now they have won 3 and drawn 1 of their last 5. Wycombe beat us 3-2 at their place then went 9 without a win. Mansfield came to us and got a point then went 10 without a win including 8 losses. Hartlepool came to us with no wins, just 1 point and hadn't even scored a goal yet they left with a point. I could go on but you get the picture. We are like the footballing equivalent of gift aid and we are essentially a joke.

Why would anyone continue to pay money to watch an unfunny comedy show. I may as well just buy a Chubby Brown DVD and save myself loads of cash.

Sure if the players can prove that they are willing to give this a go then I'm happy to offer my support again this season. We don't care if they lose, why can't they understand this? So long as they have thrown the kitchen sink then it's all we can ask. So far this season it sadly looks as if there has been some sort of underworld betting conspiracy because the only thing we have thrown is games of football.

[nickbrod]

With a pathetic 30 points, needing to win the next three in order to get out of the bottom two, assuming teams above collect no points, a minus goal difference of - 20, scoring fewer goals than matches played and only 13 games to play this all leads to inevitable relegation.
So rather than watch Jeff Stelling gloating over his Hartlepool side on Gillette Soccer Saturday I went off to watch a local team, Aldershot to catch up with Conference football. Just over 1,900 turned up to watch a comedy of errors - four goals from set pieces, three from corners (two to the visitors Lincoln City) and one from a free kick. By the end Lincoln ran out winners 3-2 with Aldershot looking odds on for a second relegation to Conference South.
Mind you they had Joe Oastler at centre half who was probably at fault for two of Lincoln's goals along with Craig Stanley in mid-field who was a shadow of the player he once was.
With our current goal shy forwards and our generous porous defence we would be struggling in the Conference on this evidence.
What I can't understand is why we don't attack, attack, attack. As I've posted recently I could live with losing 3-4 but please no more pussy-footing around with square/backward passes and losing 0-1/0-2 etc.

[Dave_Pougher]

Deary me

Another bellend arrives to have a pop at the person who saved the club

Why do you feel the need to insult people constantly for viewing their opinions on an open forum?

[hector]

Apart from dementia not being something to treat so lightly, I have pointed out to you on another thread that I would rather trust the judgement of Mr Chris Wilder in regard to the experience, skills, and ability Mr Knill can bring to a struggling League 2 side, than I would yours. Mr Wilder does after all know something about football.

OPINION (Yours): Knill is the Anti-Christ and responsible for the demise of Torquay United and the crisis in the Crimea;

FACT: The experienced Mr Wilder chose Mr Knill to assist him in getting Northampton out of the relegation places. When he joined them Northampton were 6 points behind us. They are now 3 points ahead. A 9 point turnaround in such a short space of time is quite an achievement.

So .... well done Mr Knill and let's hope our bloke can get it together in the way you have at Northampton

So enlighten us on the facts to Alan Knill's record at TUFC...not just one or two cherry-picked games - his entire record. Please explain to me how a manager with a win ratio of 18.something% was worth persisting with. The club may or may not have made the right choice with who they replaced him with but dispensing with Alan Knill was completely the right decision. The only thing wrong about it was that it was three months too late.

The utter irony of your comment that Wilder had regard to the experience, skills and ability that Knill can bring to a struggling League 2 side. Are you being sarcastic here? Is this just a wind-up?

If Knill is so well-equipped why did he not do it here? When he was in charge and not someone else making the decisions.

[Fonda]

Knill was fired in December. If he was fired '3 months too late' he apparently should have been sacked in September - after 8 weeks of competitive action. Yes, that all sounds very sensible and reasonable.

[aldershotgull]

Why do you feel the need to insult people constantly for viewing their opinions on an open forum?

It's cool... I readily accept that some people in all walks of life are incapable of holding a reasoned, intelligent debate and therefore resort to the lowest common denominator - insults and name calling.

[stefano]

So enlighten us on the facts to Alan Knill's record at TUFC...not just one or two cherry-picked games - his entire record. Please explain to me how a manager with a win ratio of 18.something% was worth persisting with. The club may or may not have made the right choice with who they replaced him with but dispensing with Alan Knill was completely the right decision. The only thing wrong about it was that it was three months too late.

The utter irony of your comment that Wilder had regard to the experience, skills and ability that Knill can bring to a struggling League 2 side. Are you being sarcastic here? Is this just a wind-up?

If Knill is so well-equipped why did he not do it here? When he was in charge and not someone else making the decisions.

It is not really worth trying to enlighten you Mr Hector, as you refuse to be 'enlightened'.

So the last 5 games (used by many in the betting industry and forecasters) is now cherry picking.

I suppose at least we are both mature enough not to throw insults at each other. Well maybe other than you saying I am barking, but perhaps it was a wind up and not really meant.

Mr Wilder (a very experienced football man with more knowledge of the game than you can ever hope to have) chose Mr Knill to assist him in a very difficult task. All of the evidence so far points to them succeeding in that task.

I can only return to my comment in a previous post and the ancient Devon proverb. There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Matron .... Hector's been drinking his shaving water again!