The Blame Game

[SBP]

And to significantly improve the playing staff, money is required...

We had money, however it was spent on other things

[Fonda]

Yes it was. The thing is, people see spend on training grounds and new stands as essential for a club to grow - right up until the team starts to struggle, and suddenly that money was spent on the wrong things. There is a saying - build it and they will come. At most clubs that have built new stadiums, or made significant improvement to their existing infrastructure, attendances go up. People are enticed by the shiny new surroundings. Unfortunately, yet again we proved the exception. New stand, a more comfortable match day experience, and it had absolutely no tangible effect on attendances.

[SBP]

I agree with what you are saying regarding the new stadium etc etc. I just feel that the investment in the playing squad has been neglected when the warning signs have been there for everyone to see. The board was told that we were over achieving with the squad we had.

[Fonda]

Agreed. Pretty sure it was Ling that said, the moment he took over Buckle's side 'this club is over-achieving to be challenging for promotion'. And he was following the lead of Buckle, who'd said much the same. It looked like a ridiculously defeatist attitude - one made by managers to cover their own arses when things went wrong - but perhaps in hindsight they had a point. There isn't sufficient desire within the town for a successful team.

[SBP]

Correct, there isn't sufficient desire within the town for many reasons. The club have not engaged enough with the local schools, local leagues, the list could go on. We don't have any local lads playing. The locals couldn't care less to be honest. Very sad.

[chunkygull]

You cannot blame people, who are not interested in football or have no affiliation for TUFC, or those not willing to pay £17+ to watch a team that never wins. The 2500 is fairly standard for a club of our size and the performance it gives. The likes of Accrington, Burton, Rochdale, Bury, Morecambe, Hartlepool, York, Dagenham, Mansfield, Fleetwood, Stevenage amongst others, would get similar or less after the recent times we have had.

We can and have supported a league team, largely for almost 90 years. Not a very good one, one that struggles but one nevertheless that need not be struggling like we are today.

Like you suggest, I think the likes of Accrington, Morecambe will eventually slip back into the Conference (I suspect Accrington will come down with us this year) but whether the Conference is our natural level (when for the most part of a century, it hasn't been) it is difficult to say. Less than two years ago, when we looked like we get automatic promotion to League 1 (until Ling's team ran out of steam), nobody would have been suggesting that the Conference was our natural place. More than likely, most would have agreed - had we gone up - that League 1 was a bit above us, but that League 2 was where we were comfortable. It is all relative to how things are going.

If we go down and do the same as Hereford for a few seasons, or Lincoln, some will come on here say perhaps Conference South and part-time football is our true level, yet if we go down and perform like we did last time, it will vindicate those who suggest we are a bit too good for the Conference and League 2 is about right.

So in my view, because I think we are a standard League 2 club, it is the decisions that have been made that put us in this mess. Just bad, bad choices have been made by directors, in the managers appointed and the managers in teams they have picked and signings that they have made. To suggest the people of Torbay have let the club down is missing the point.

That could include people like my Mum, with no interest in football, wish the club well but wouldn't want to watch. The fact that the club has not managed to attract the legions of northerners who come down supporting Liverpool or Manchester United is hardly surprising.

The club have yo-yoed for the last 30 years. Relegation battles and promotion campaigns but nothing successful has ever been sustained, so it was never going to allow a bigger supporter base to flourish. Those who may be persuaded when the team is doing well, will soon go away again when it reverts to form. Even myself, I have been watching for 35 years but I'd happily not bother now.

Is that therefore my fault amongst others that the team would struggle because I no longer wish to spend money I can ill-afford on something that just makes me feel even more frustrated. Usually when people spend money, it is in the hope that they will feel better about it afterwards. Spending it on Torquay United just makes people poorer and angrier at the end of the experience.

For the cost of watching Torquay, I could watch 3 films at my local cinema...7-9 hours of something that takes your mind of the everyday. I could enjoy a nice meal, I could buy a few DVDs or CDs, a shirt, enjoy a few pints, I could buy the children some toys, pay a months broadband, clothe a village in Africa - but no, instead, I spend it watching the most mindless crap of football, in a soulless, empty mausoleum of a football ground watching players who don't even really play for the club - an endless succession of them on loan - have seen the team win TWICE since last April.

Tell me, what is so enticing for even the most loyal of supporters, let alone this 'mythical apathetic public of South Devon' to waste their money and time on that? The club get the gates it deserves.

Crikey, I cant believe I'm going to say this but -

[DevonYellow]

Yes it was. The thing is, people see spend on training grounds and new stands as essential for a club to grow - right up until the team starts to struggle, and suddenly that money was spent on the wrong things. There is a saying - build it and they will come. At most clubs that have built new stadiums, or made significant improvement to their existing infrastructure, attendances go up. People are enticed by the shiny new surroundings. Unfortunately, yet again we proved the exception. New stand, a more comfortable match day experience, and it had absolutely no tangible effect on attendances.

We buit a new stand but other than the view it has done nothing to improve the match day experience. No catering, or even toilets(!), within it and it now takes longer to get in and out the ground than it did before.

A catering area underneath selling alcohol, one each for both sets of fans would have seen income increase. Particularly for the away fans.

And look what's it's done to the pitch!

[Fonda]

Yeah fair point, but from a watching perspective it's an improvement on the old Grandstand surely? There aren't pillars obscuring the view for a start. And it's got nice comfy seats. Err, and it's quite high. Yeah, I'm all out now.

[DevonYellow]

It's not the ground that's keeping people away though. It's the entrance fee, football on offer and low wages in the area coupled with the fact everyone thinks we are crap. Which, to be fair, this season we are!

My suggestions would have made more money from the existing fans though.

[Fonda]

Yeah true, don't doubt they could have made more of it and increased revenues further.

As for the attendances, it's a vicious circle. People won't come as long as the performances are so bad. But the team won't be improved unless more people come and spend more money.

[Dave_Pougher]

I take your point fonda in your original question but not sure how "The fault lies in the apathy of the local population and it has long been so."
As I feel that that situation has been so for all of time and in the time we have done good, bad and indifferent in that time.

In my opnion not enough has been made of other avenues of revenue streams for a very long time. However I'm more concerned, initially, with what has gone on since CH took over. It now seems he will be in charge what ever the outcome of this season and if the club wish to have my continued financial support next season tough questions need to be asked and answered, quickly.

[hector]

I've said pretty much everything I want to day on other threads but thought I would say this here as it's as good a place as any.

How, in the name of all that is good and holy, is anybody defending Alan Knill.

Those interested in stats would probably be interested to note that his win rate at our club for his entire time was, wait for it, a whole 18.52%!!!!

Yep, 18.52% - yet people are still finding ways to defend him.

He signed strikers that can't score, pacy wingers that can't cross, made substitutions when all was already lost, put out a team against our two neighbours and allowed us to be rogered senseless and made us worse off than we were when we took over.

He was/is a terrible manager - one can forgive him last season as it wasn't "his" team, but this season it is and we are worse off.

Nope, no defending from me - he was worse than useless and is, almost, wholly to blame for us going down this season.

Excellent post.

[hector]

Yes it was. The thing is, people see spend on training grounds and new stands as essential for a club to grow - right up until the team starts to struggle, and suddenly that money was spent on the wrong things. There is a saying - build it and they will come. At most clubs that have built new stadiums, or made significant improvement to their existing infrastructure, attendances go up. People are enticed by the shiny new surroundings. Unfortunately, yet again we proved the exception. New stand, a more comfortable match day experience, and it had absolutely no tangible effect on attendances.

I think that tends to be true of new grounds, but not a new stand added and it doesn't last long if the product on the pitch is poor. Look at Darlington with the Reynold Arena - currently owned by a rugby club not much better than Newton Abbot.

[Fonda]

I take your point fonda in your original question but not sure how "The fault lies in the apathy of the local population and it has long been so."
As I feel that that situation has been so for all of time and in the time we have done good, bad and indifferent in that time.

In my opnion not enough has been made of other avenues of revenue streams for a very long time. However I'm more concerned, initially, with what has gone on since CH took over. It now seems he will be in charge what ever the outcome of this season and if the club wish to have my continued financial support next season tough questions need to be asked and answered, quickly.

Dave, I think we have done (reasonably) well in the past despite the level of support/income. Much as clubs like Accrington continue to do. But these things will catch up with you in the end. Clubs can't continue to remain competitive against others with bigger budgets forever. We've been found out and I think those other small clubs mentioned will be too. Money rules the game unfortunately even at this level - it is not a level playing field (much like Plainmoor in fact).

[wivelgull]

Hector is right. Attendances go up when the team is winning - and they stay up when they continue to win. The bottom line is that hardly any money was spent on players. A question (or scenario) that hasn't been address is this. Why weren't Olejnik and O'Kane offered higher wages so that they would stay? Why sell? Why not keep? The team prospers, the crowds - such as they are - return, and we get what all supporters want : promotion.