Where did it all go wrong.....

[lucy6lucy]

an early but strong contender for stupid post of the year award!

To be fair, I think it's a valid post. It's pretty evident the team has gone downhill since his departure, I hate to use the word that's FACT. But please explain how it isn't. Ling did a good job, and since his departure we have gone from a top/middle league 2 side to a non league side that cant even have shot on target against the mighty Braintree. I appreciate we will never know where we would be now if ling had not been sacked, but one thing his departure had a negative effect on most players and has cost the club over £160k in managers being sacked, which could have been used on player investment. This is not CH fault! but it does identify a strong correlation that since ling went we have gone free fall as a club.

[supergulls]

an early but strong contender for stupid post of the year award!

We'll show me any evidence that we are in a better position now than the day that we relieved Martin of his duties.

[Rjc70]

We'll show me any evidence that we are in a better position now than the day that we relieved Martin of his duties.

He won't. I don't tend to look backwards when it comes to TUFC Managers too much, but Buckle and Ling were good managers for this consortium. It has been all downhill since.

Shaun Taylor's temporary charge did for Ling to an extent. Knill - poor. Hargreaves might come good, I don't know, but wasn't the man for a relegation battle last season whilst cutting his managerial teeth.

[nickbrod]

What happened happened at the time for a reason which seemed correct at that moment. Clubs change managers in the hope the new man brings success.
Ling went and Knill came in, when the majority of fans were pleased to see his appointment. Little were any of us to know how bad that decision was.
As assistant manager at Northampton it looks as if his curse is happening again as they are close to the relegation area.

[CP Gull]

It is a difficult one though isn't it? I happen to think that there is a distinct possibility that the actions of the Board (in making Martin Ling's job more difficult than ever - by effectively withdrawing their support at a critical time of the season) may just have played a part, a small part maybe, in adding to the stress that he suffered that ( sadly ) eventually led to his breakdown. Some may think that that is taking things too far but I think it's fair to say that work pressures often play a large part in nervous breakdowns and perhaps only Martin Ling himself can only really give an honest answer as to how much of a part it played - no doubt being so far away from his family would also have played a major part though.

I agree with Rjc70 that it was unfortunate that Shaun Taylor was left " holding the baby" as quite clearly he wasn't up to the job - he may, or may not be a decent coach or assistant, but he was certainly not fit for purpose as a Manager of a League 2 club.

What happened next, well quite simply as history has shown in the past - the club chose the cheap and easy option - they had a cheap (by virtue of the fact that he was prepared to do the job for nothing - on expenses only until the end of the season) option available who was not only unemployed (so no fee payable) but also someone who, to be fair, had a reasonable CV at this level (with Bury) albeit a recent failure at Scunthorpe.

At the time of his " temporary" appointment I must admit to a feeling of a little disappointment as in no way did I see it as an "exciting" appointment as I felt (and said so at the time that I thought his reputation was a little "dour"). His recent "performance" at Scunthorpe seemed as though it could reasonably be passed off as a "blip" under difficult (financial) circumstances and on the face of it, at least, he seemed a "safe pair of hands" to guide us to safety.

Whatever anybody says about the remainder of that season, the simple fact remains that Alan Knill DID achieve his sole objective, as set by the Board when he was appointed, when he kept us up - job done.

At that time - the end of the season, the Board was faced with an extremely difficult decision. Should they reappoint the previously successful Martin Ling, in the full knowledge that he came with the "baggage" of his nervous breakdown - no offence meant by that to anyone who has suffered in this way but those are the cold facts - or was the "safer" option to look elsewhere? The very fact that they had an experienced man, who had "done a job" for them - who was both available, happy to relocate to the area, affordable (presumably) and with a reasonable cv who had been prepared to do the job for " nothing" in our hour of need .... was it really any wonder that he was chosen? This despite the fact that there were probably stronger candidates available .. Paul Sturrock, for one.

Ultimately, I know there are others out there that think differently but as I see it there was a certain inevitably about the permanent appointment of Alan Knill - which, despite what some may think, was generally well received by Torquay fans. Let's not forget the certain amount of "stick" that even TUFC "legend" Eunan O'Kane got from certain quarters when he reacted (negatively) to TUFC fans chanting Alan Knill's name towards the end of the season - which he saw as a clear sleight on (the previous Manager) Martin Ling during the period of his recuperation.

So, whilst I would defend the actions taken by the Board in the circumstances surrounding Alan Knill's appointment, the one thing that I would question is did the Board actually talk to the senior players about his appointment? The one thing, at the time, that didn't seem to ring true was whether KnilL really had the support of the senior players in his squad at the time that they survived relegation - in hindsight, I suspect he did not - and maybe that is something (the views of the players) that the Board should have sought out - but I (strongly) suspect they didn't. Perhaps if they would have .... things MIGHT have turned out differently ... who knows?

[CP Gull]

My apologies for flagging this back up, but I can't believe how much worse things seem SIX months on .....




Where DID it all go wrong?????

My apologies for the length of this post, but like quite a few that used to post more regularly on here, I haven't done so for a while and so I have more to say than I usually would!

Like a lot of long suffering fans that post on here it appears, I too have found my enthusiasm for TUFC severely tested over the developments of the last couple of years. As 2014 draws to a close and after more than 7 years of their ownership the "new" consortium that took over the club way back in 2007 does seem to be falling apart at the seams. It has made me question, where did it all go so badly wrong?

There are some that may well consider our current position about right for a club with let's face it a hardcore support of just 2000 or so, although of course in reality there are far more of us when you take into account all the exiles that make our away support, in terms of numbers relative to our home support, so commendable even at this low point in our history. Maybe, we are now at a level that befits a small seaside town in a far flung outpost of the country, but the speed and rapid descent is understandably hard to take for all supporters when you consider the relative success that we enjoyed under the first five years of the new owners.

It is hard to take, when not so long ago we were regularly beating the big city teams in league and cup competitions, taking the scalps of the likes of Portsmouth, Plymouth, Bristol (Rovers), Blackpool, Bradford, Swindon and Rotherham to name just a few. With the greatest respect to the clubs involved to now find ourselves being humbled by the likes of Alfreton, Braintree and Telford and "celebrating" a "decent point" at the likes of Dover and Welling is quite hard to take.

It has made me wonder where and when it all went wrong and despite the relative success we enjoyed in those first few years under the new owners, I have come to the conclusion that actually several mistakes were made before they had hardly even got their feet under the table! Firstly, from the outset, there were far too many people involved - starting out with a board of 9 or 10 was far too many to begin with - it must have made the decision making process difficult and the Board was just too large and unwieldy. With the greatest respect to all those individuals, all successful people in their own right, you have to wonder what apart from a few quid some have really contributed to the cause. Personally, I think it would have been far better to have started with just a few "hands on" Directors who could really make a difference while supporting the Bristows .... rather than just trying to trouser every wealthy fan in the Bay for the odd £50k!

Secondly, I also believe through conversations that I have had, that they paid Mike Bateson too much for the club in the first place. In a game of poker, the well meaning group of fans, lost out to the hard nosed businessman Bateson. Of course, it also meant, straight from the off, that they had less than they originally intended for the playing budget and whilst it may have not have had too much of an immediate impact I am sure it probably did a little further down the road.

Thirdly, they then rushed too quickly to reappoint Colin Lee. Whilst he would undoubtedly have made a good Director of Football in my opinion, to give him the Chief Executive role was in hindsight I believe a mistake. I would not have had a problem with Lee in that role if he was the owner of the club and using his own money .... as I suspect he would have made a far better job of it, he would certainly have spent a lot less!

It would have been far better, to have appointed someone with previous experience in the role, someone who understood football but with experience in accountancy and making sure that the Bristows (in the main) money was being spent wisely. The Board must be given credit for backing Lee in appointing Paul Buckle (a good appointment as it turned out) but they surely should have paid more attention to the commercial side. Appointing a lovely guy like Daryl Batten may have been a popular choice but Daryl's expertise has always been in hospitality ( and still is to this day!) and at a time when they should have been "cashing in" on the new found optimism surrounding the club they failed to take advantage of the situation.

Quite simply, under Lee, we were losing money hand over fist and it appeared that no one knew what was going on! I will always remember a fans forum meeting where the then Chairman Simon Baker suggested in January that we were looking at a break even or small loss position for that year ... six months or so later we posted a loss of more than £600k if memory serves me right and Lee was finally relieved of his duties when the Board finally realised that he was spending money like there was no tomorrow!

I had always expected, even assumed, with all the collective experience that the Board had in their numbers that with all the solicitors, accountants and successful businessmen in their ranks that the club was in "safe" hands ... alas, when you consider the size of the record making losses we have made over the intervening years, I suspect it was more a case of them making sure that their own personal investment didn't grow to an unacceptable level, but neglected to put a brake on things when it became clear that the club was becoming ever more reliant on the benevolence of the Bristows' to keep the club afloat.

Quite clearly we were spending far too much money in those early years and yet no one seemed to do anything about it. With all the success (relative) that we were enjoying on the field, as a mere fan, I didn't care too much about the record breaking losses but even I did find myself questioning how well the club was being run when we were enjoying the benefits year upon year of play off monies, FA Trophy final, successful FA Cup runs, transfer sale proceeds, Wembley and old Trafford appearances and of course promotion via a play off final and all of this and we were still posting huge losses! All of the above should have been unbudgeted ... so goodness only knows how far we would have come in over budget and what sort of losses we might have posted if we hadn't enjoyed such success!

For all his faults and for all the mediocrity on show, bar the "Rosenior years" of course, the one thing with Mike Bateson was that he always ran a tight ship and the club was always in safe hands under him even during some of the most trying periods in our history. Sadly, as much as I don't want to admit it,but given our current predicament I have a lot less faith in the current Board, as we have become far too reliant on the generosity of one individual to sustain the club and she (and her family) have already given plenty enough. As Thea herself has said she is not a " bottomless pit" and if (as seems likely) she hasn't already said enough is enough, she will do one day soon and then what happens? I guess it all depends on whether Thea is prepared to write off the huge loans that have accumulated over the years.

The other thing with Bateson was that actually as he proved time and again, when he genuinely thought our League status might be seriously in doubt he would always come up trumps with the appointment of the likes of Warnock, Lee and Atkins even if only on a short term basis, proving sufficient to ensure we stayed up. He also showed ambition on occasion too with the £70k we gambled on a Eiffion Williams and the £75k we threw away on Leon Constantine. Unfortunately, I don't think the current Board have been able to act quite so decisively and certainly not as effectively, as our relegation proved, when it came to our time of need and lessons we should have learnt when we nearly went down in the 12-13 season were not heeded the following year and we paid the ultimate price.

On the pitch, if there has to have been a pivotal moment when it all started to unravel then for me it would be, as others have suggested, that FACup Round 1 defeat to Harrogate under Martin Ling. Up to that point the Board had grown accustomed to banking the prize money, gate money, TV appearance (Yeovil, Coventry) money that decent runs in the Cup had brought under Buckle. That all changed when we slumped at the first hurdle under Ling. I can always remember a rather forlorn sounding Ling giving an interview to BBC Radio Devon around that time saying something along the lines of "relying on income from an FA Cup run was no way to run a football club". Of course, he was being quite obtuse and it wasn't clear to me at least at the time as to whether he was actually referring to his own club or just generalising ... it soon became clear it was indeed TUFC he was on about!

You have to feel sorry for Ling, given that just a few short months earlier, he had sold off the "Crown Jewels" through the transfers of O'Kane, Olejnik and Ellis - sales that (over time admittedly) brought in £600k to the football club and everyone or so it seemed at the time anyway, wrongly as it turned out, assumed that the club was flush with money ... the cost of building Bristows bench put paid to that. Being told that he had no money to spend in the January, transfer window, when he had just banked the club £600k in the summer, would have bene enough to drive anyone to contemplate resorting to drink you might think, and many speculated at the time that it did for Ling, but in reality it simply drove him to despair and as we now know, within a couple of months it had all become too much for him.

More mistakes by the Board, such as giving Shaun Taylor too much time, nearly cost us relegation two years ago, but ultimately we stayed up, so job done. I didn't have a problem with the appointment of Alan Knill at the time (although I felt there were better candidates around) as I thought that the reappointment of Martin Ling represented too much of a risk given his health issues and the stresses involved in running a club like ours. Whether Knill was the right appointment or whether Hargreaves was as his ultimate replacement is all very subjective but what is clear is that they have both had to work under very difficult circumstances as the purse strings have been pulled ever tighter.

Rather like the Greek economy, indeed the global economy, we the fans just like the citizens of Greece, now appear to be having to pay the price for all those years of over spending by those in control of the purse strings. At least the Greeks can vent their anger in the direction of their politicians and the bankers though, whereas who of us with TUFC in our heart can really ever point the finger at the benevolent Thea Bristow and her family. She is clearly not the best Chairperson or indeed spokesperson you would wish for your football club, she would admit as much herself I am sure, but she has given so much over the years and for a few brief years in our history she really did make a difference and helped bring us some good times and happy memories .... sadly though you get the feeling those times are probably behind us, for the foreseeable future at least, and you cannot help but wonder if the custodians of our football club could and should have made so much more of the fantastic (once in a lifetime? ) opportunity of having a hugely supportive lottery winner amongst our fan base. Personally, I can't help but feel that that opportunity, given where we are now, seems like it may have been wasted.

Of course, on a positive note, the real legacy of the "Bristow years" may well prove to be the redevelopment of the ground and of course Bristows' Bench. I should also add the development of Seale Hayne training ground but at the moment that seems to have had more of a negative impact than a positive one and whether it will ever be truly " finished" or whether it will revert back to little more than a farmers field in years to come is I suppose anyone's guess!

For all the improvements at Plainmoor (yes that's right Plainmoor for that is what it will always be to me and the rest of us) though, is there any amongst us who wouldn't trade it in for a three sided ground with a squad good enough to compete with the " big boys" in League 2, or even dare I say it League 1, which we came so close to doing two seasons in a row a short while back? Funnily enough, I really enjoyed that season where everyone squeezed into either the Popside or the Family Stand - the atmosphere was the best it had been for years in my opinion and there was a real sense of "togetherness" which feels a little lacking on match days now I feel.

One final gripe (I promise!) and something that I believe has really stunted our progress on the pitch given the importance put on it by the Board when they first took over the club and that is ..... why is it after SEVEN long years we stil seem totally unable to produce our own players from within the Youth set up? Whilst it was the right decision, in my opinion, to release young Niall Thompson and Danny Sullivan in the last couple of weeks, it is depressing that yet again we have failed to be able to get young players to make the step up. Following in the footsteps of the likes of Saul Halpin, Ray Spear, Kyrtis MacKenzie it has become an all too familiar pattern of failure to make the step up and does anyone really hold out any more hope for the likes of Hutchings, Purcell and Chaney? Of course young Ives may make the grade, but will it even be with us ? Not only that but from what I have seen of late, he still has an awful lot to learn anyway.

To their credit the Youth set up have at least seen some reward for the efforts with the sale (£40k) of young keeper Neal Osborne to Southampton and they were unlucky not to cash in on the £50k agreed with Aston Villa for young Prynn but in terms of producing players for the first team we have Ashley Yeoman as the only flag bearer and his future (yet again!) must be in some doubt beyond the summer.

Why is it that Exeter (and to a lesser extent these days - Plymouth) can continually produce young players (mostly local in the main too) that are able to easily make the transition into their first team and then inevitably get sold for a small fortune down the line. The likes of Grimes (rumoured to be on his way to the Premiership for a seven figure fee), Pym, Sercombe, Nicholls, Bennett and Moore-Taylor to name just a few, all came through their Academy system as far as I am aware and are all now featuring regularly in their first team these days and all making an impact too. They are just a few more in a long procession of players that their youth set up has produced over the years, including the period when they were in the Conference with us, which includes the likes of Dean Moxey and Daniel Seaborne both of whom made it to the Premiership.

I do wonder how good a job is being done and how close an eye the Board keeps on the youth set up and what, if any, performance targets are being set. Are they quite simply just left to get on with things in the hope that eventually they might just produce something or are they closely monitored and set clear targets? The honest answer is I don't know, but what I do know is that so far they have failed to secure one single player, on a pro contract, that has really got anywhere near to being an established first team member... in seven years of trying. It may seem harsh to some, but those are the FACTS and in a results based business, a cutthroat one at that, some might say that that fact alone might be enough to consider a change is necessary.

Of course, the stark reality is that within the next couple of years, when the central funding for the Academy has all gone, we may well be faced with the same difficult decision that Mike Bateson had to make and it would be no great surprise if the whole thing was shut down again It would be a great shame, of course, but rather like Bateson did all those years ago you have to wonder whether all that investment is truly worthwhile and, as was the case back then, if you aren't either developing kids for the first team and/or receiving transfer money back from their sale on .... then really, what is the point of it all?

If you are still reading this, then fair play to you! I have gone on far too long, but as is always the way with forums like this it is a great way to "get things off your chest" .... even though you know, in your heart of hearts that no one is really listening .....

[IanGull01]

I believe it all went wrong when Martin Ling went.

A good manager, brought in good players, ran the team well etc and just cause he had an illness which so many people struggle with(myself included so I know what it's about) he was dispensed. He should of taken on the job again as soon as he was better.

There is no way we would be in this situation now.

[CP Gull]

I believe it all went wrong when Martin Ling went.

A good manager, brought in good players, ran the team well etc and just cause he had an illness which so many people struggle with(myself included so I know what it's about) he was dispensed. He should of taken on the job again as soon as he was better.

There is no way we would be in this situation now.

I make you right on the timing Ian, and you may well be right in terms of the Manager too BUT I do feel that the problems with the club and the way it has been run over the last few years run deeper than that. Even a decent Manager like Martin Ling may well have struggled to keep us in the League with some of the decision making made by the Board in recent times.

[arcadia]

This is interesting reading and I think that it's down to a lack of leadership at the top, someone who controls the purse strings. The club went out of control and that comes from the top and the blame points at the directors who have taken their eye off the ball. The last few managers signed some bad players and their tactics were poor as well, it needed sorting a couple of years ago but a change was made and they then let it happen again. I think it's sad that Martin Ling departed but there was no option.
Ives and Lavercombe should have been signed after their first games it was obvious that they were good enough, this should have been spotted early. If they were signed early the interest in them would not matter now, the managers experience was lacking at this time. He should have gone to the Chairman then.
These two were special, yes they will make mistakes but will be good enough to hold their own and progress.

[nickbrod]

The Board needed a 'football man' when Colin Lee left to advise not only them but also CH learning his trade. Not saying we would not still be in the Conference but I reckon we would have made a better fight of retaining our League status.
If/when we have new ownership I hope the new Board find and employ such a person.

[Southampton Gull]

Yawn. How do you know the manager didn't go to the chairman?? You jusr presume he didn't yet somehow both the players you mentioned did receive offers. Those offers may well have been derogatory but the figures weren't governed by the manager.

Don't blame the manager for the inadequacy of the board.

[Neal]

The problem with all this, is that you will NEVER really know. Because you have limited information. You don't really know the relationship dynamics behind the scenes. You don't really know, and I mean really know the financial situation over the past x years, some people at the club probably don't even know, only the accountants.

Learning from your mistakes, who really does do that in reality, that's why as humans we continually make mistakes, and don't tell me none of you haven't.

look, just one simple example, choosing a new manager. You will never know if they will be successful at your club or not, its a punt in the end, Mike Bateson alluded to that when he contributed on the forum. Lets just say you have a choice between manager a and b, and more likely it would also be c d and e.

Manager a has a cv that has some successes (which he highlights of course) and a couple of failures but is termed "experienced". He will want a good wack, lets say 120k and a rolling contract.

Manager b its his first job in management, got lots of enthusiasm and is a hard worker. He wants 75k and a 2 year deal

Mmmmmmm...... If either come off your ok. But.... the probability is that they wont. if a doesn't your f8cked. But probably 'a' slightly more chance of success than 'b'

I tell you, that's a hard decision at the time, without hindsight etc etc. Fans seem to think that's its piss easy and the directors who are mainly successful business men just cant make the right decision. Ok you choose manager a because the fans are calling for that. Then you find out that a couple of teams in your league have got new investment from Russian Billionaires, ah that's a problem, he better be shit hot this new manager a then. In the end the choice is based on probability and how much you want to gamble.

[Gloomy Gull]

..........When the Bristow family won the lottery and because of their devotion to TUFC agreed to invest in the club.

My perception is that from that point forward, until June this year, the Board Members did not extend the necessary level of diligence to the financial performance of the club, in the expectation that "Thea will cover the spend" .

Could it be a carefree attitude with someone else's money was a contributing factor to Alex Rowe etc. leaving ....they were uncomfortable with the machinations?

I do not blame Thea or Paul, I believe they were ordinary people who were suddenly blessed with an extraordinary amount of money but did not have the business acumen to deal with the windfall and change of circumstance and have been badly advised/let down/poached upon by others with more business savvy.

I appreciate the argument that if they had not come along we have no idea where we may be now - possibly with Bateson at the helm with all that may have brought? Although despite the turbulent relationship between MB and the supporters, he is receiving some belated praise for running a financially stable business......would it have been worse? Possibly, if he had looked to sell again to a Robert's type character.

[arcadia]

My firm belief is that if Hargreaves had been the assistant to Colin Lee the club would be in a better position than it is now but I doubt if the club could run to them. Whoever decided to pay the manager three times as much as the players need their head examined. If you can't afford you don't have.
In hindsight Harrop's selection for his one game in charge was a well balanced side but I understand that he asked Mansell and look where he's gone.

[Fonda]

Things were going wrong before Ling left. We wouldn't have dispensed with him otherwise. Did things get worse after he left? Possibly. But hindsight is a wonderful thing. At the time, it was probably the right decision. Lets not re-write history.