TorquayFans.com | Torquay United Fans Forum

I agree with Merse with some points and also with Big D (Southampton Gull) but first if I may address the issue of fans wanting GI to give Nico funds to 'bring in proper proven players'.

Obviously it wouldn't be the same if I didn't bring everything back to York City but I feel that the similarities between the two clubs fortunes is alarmingly uncanny barring a handful of things. MONEY / GEOGRAPHY / PLAYER BUDGET and IMO just highlights what a good job Kev Nic is doing under the circumstances.

The Minstermen and the Gulls have both been run appallingly on and off the field these last few years with 'you couldn't make it up' moments seemingly happening every week but i'll come to those shortly.

At the end of last season ex- York boss and now Head of Operations at the football club (like I said - you couldn't make it up) Jackie McNamara cleared out the entire squad of players that got the club relegated. I think the only one remaining is Vadaine Oliver who didn't even play for the club this season until the last few weeks when he has been recalled from loan spells at Notts County et al. Oliver on his day is a player Torquay would bite your hands off for but can't even get games or goals for York against some dire sides in this division.

McNamara must have signed about 25 players, many on 2 year deals and no improvement. He manages to achieve the joint worst managerial record in the clubs history and gets moved upstairs to oversee club operations and ex York boss Gary Mills is brought in to resuce the situation. Mills brings in another load of players including Big Jonny Parkin, Sean Newton, Aaron Racine, Simon Lappin, Amari Morgan Smith, Hamza Bencherif et al and STILL performances and results continue to be atrocious. I said at the beginning of this season that York will be in the NL North next season whilst the chairman and some fans thought a title challenge was in the offing.

My point is that York have had the parachute payments from relegation from league 2, they have a chairman who for all his faults DOES back managers with funds for players and they also have the added bonus of having a geographically favourable location so to attract players to sign permanently or on loan deals. They are able to travel to away games in comfort and utilise hotels. They have the luxury of a youth set up.

Kev Nic has none of these and yet he is in with a fighting chance of keeping TUFC in the division whilst York are bowing out of existence in it's current form. The job he has done with such a basket case of a club and behind the scenes carnage is incredible IMO to say he had next to no managerial experience. So I totally agree with SG about this point.

Having money to sign more experienced accomplished players doesn't mean you get results. Christ have we not learned from the Thea days of chucking money at the Hawley's and Tonges of this world? Just say Nico had a hefty war chest to get players in. Who are we going to get to come down to Torquay and buy into the clubs ethos (which is non existant currently) and start turning the club into a winning machine? It ain't gonna happen and I think many fans are deluded. It's as if GI gives Kev a load a cash and they'll all come flocking back to Plainmoor when in reality it is unsustainable bullsh*t.

This brings me onto Merse and his point about sourcing non league managers who have experience at least at a slightly lower level and can look to local leagues to get players in and run the team reasonably successfully on a limited budget. Nico IMO isn't the answer long term and someone like who Merse suggests IS IMO. Take a look at the Cowley brothers. Concord Rangers a few years ago.

The days are gone when we sign overrated crap players with poor attitudes for stupid money just to compensate them to up sticks for 2 years and come down here and I thought fans would be glad of this.

This club doesn't need GI to drip feed it, all it needs is fans to have realistic expectations of success and for the club to exploit it's local area and live within it's means. That's why York will go down and go bust. The chairman has exhausted himself financially in a desperate attempt at atoning for all his shockingly poor appointments and he's taken a back seat and is now concentrating on his packaging business leaving all operations to the man who was majorly responsible for getting the club in the cack in the first place. The man who has the worst managerial record of any YCFC manager in it's entire history.

The new proposed community stadium which the club were set to move into 3 years ago hasn't even seen the diggers move in yet. The council don't want it nor can afford it not least for 2 clubs that are failing spectacularly. It won't get built. Chairman McGill will take his cut from the council for cutting ties and he'll leave YCFC in exactly the same position Torquay were in. In the brown stuff needing a buyr asap only they'll be in the NL North and with no ground as the lease for Bootham Crescent has been terminated and signed over to developers in the next few years.

Chesterfield FC where I am are in serious, serious trouble. Again, run into the ground by clueless greedy owners who have pocketed as much as they could and now the club need 15 mill plus just to be bought out and saved. That's not to mention the extra millions it needs to run the club as a going concern. They are nailed on for league 2 football next season and some fans think it won't end there. Think of all the success that club have had since moving into a new stadium and all the off field concerts bringing in extra revenue. Elton John, Tom Jones and others. It's insane ow they could end up exactly where York and Torquay are in a few seasons.

Torquay, York and Chesterfield have been run by total idiots for the past 5 or so years and wasted the platforms they were given. York won twice in a week at Wembley winning promotion back to the football league and go to the play offs in league 2 where they lost against Fleetwood. Since then it's been allowed to sink and rot and although obvious to everybody whilst it happened. Fans can't do a thing. They're helpless in watching the whole job lot go under.

Chesterfield as I've jut explained doubled their average gates with the new stadium build, got promoted to league 1, won the JPT at Wembley and have numerous off the field revenue streams. I've seen the collapse and decay these past few years with my own eyes living here. You couldn't make it up. They even had a club raffle where fan bought mega expensive raffle tickets with the winner going out to Portugal or whatever with the club on pre season tour and it turned out there was no such prize and they faked a winner and put it all over the media and got found out. There was no prize at all yet claimed someone had won and even tweeted out messages from this made up winner about how great it was on tour with them!!

Torquay, well we all know the slide and we all saw it coming. Some soon after the shocking treatment of Ling and some not long after but it was pretty obvious to everyone that the club were going only one way.

Until this football club starts operating sustainably within its means with players from the local area topped up with some experience and an experienced but progressive non league manager and the fans realise that this is it. That there is no scintillating football or expectation of a return to league 2 then the sooner it can begin to heal itself and get better.

Currently GI are in the box seat so it's more of the same uncertainty and being ignored i'm afraid. I can't help but feel the chance of a fan run club has been missed. Only Torquay can have two trust like entities set up both bickering with each other like schoolkids about which one is best to join. You couldn't make it up. Instead of one sweeping all before them and uniting the supporters and the town in a way that the Greasers did Torquay got the same old weak, well meaning but ultimately always pointless and ineffective lethargy that is indicative of this football club.

This football club needs to become alive again and start getting some of it's identity, passion and it's fanbase back. Are the gargs and greeks going to come through their troubles and get into league 1 whilst we drift off into the non league abyss? Are they and GI going to continue laughing at Torquay fans until there are none left to mock?

I want to know what can be done about the current situation. I don't mean the typical Torquay way of signing pointless petitions of about 60 fans which is going to get chucked straight into the dustbin after it's given some councillors a right good laugh, I don't mean vehemently writing to your local MP describing an 'awful show' and I don't mean loads of people having loads of meetings and talking about things and then going away and having loads of meetings and going away and talking some more and then some more meetings over tea and scones and going away etc etc etc. What can fans do? Someone on here said somewhere that Torquay fans don't protest. Protesting and getting in peoples faces is what is needed IMO. Not aggressive or abusive but letting GI and the council know that petitions aren't the sum total of how angry everyone is. Are fans angry? I don't know? I am still and I've not been for 3 seasons.

That's it really.

There's no surprise to me, the difference in opinions from those, who've been to a good number of games and those who haven't, for me it's not just results, although some of them have been understandable, it's been performances, far to many tired and lazy performances, far to many games where we've lacked any structure or cohesion to our play, and at home, to see our set up, the way they have been of late against sides we could have a go at, seriously, been stood in the ground most of this season bored shitless at the football on show, there's no wonder so many have dropped off the gates.

Yes, money, location, player budgets can be a problem. No, we're not going to get the likes of Rhead, Ngala down here for £300 a week, but it's not always about that, money doesn't guarantee success (it helps) see FGR who've pumped more money into their than some League 1 clubs, however, lack of funds, does not automatically lead to failure, either, see Braintree who made into the play-off semi's last term with a player budget believed to be amongst the smallest in the division and certainly lower than ours, they did it by bringing players in from Tamworth ( yes players will relocate, to step up the ladder) Concord rangers and elsewhere below our level, on peanuts.

And that's the point when you've got such a lack of funds, Shaun North through out his coaching career was known as a very diligent coach, spending a lot of free midweek time taking in games reporting back on players and teams. How many times as our management duo been and watched the likes of ; Poole, Dartford, Hungerford, Hampton + Richmond and others around the top 9 or so of the division below, to see if they've got any players who would add strength to our team, the sort of players who maybe young ambitious, who would fancy the chance to step up to full time football, in bid to further their careers, and would most likely to take a £300 a week deal, love to known, have a feeling the answer would be, they haven't. It's Nicho's job to know where the best young players are at our level, especially as he can't afford to bring in those who are proven.

Nope we just plump for two players who the manager knew, both try hard, but one is has not been fit since he arrived, and other with respect has worked hard to improve, but isn't good enough.

Nicho is a nice, decent down to earth, approachable man, we all know he goes above and beyond the job description he's paid for, and we all know he'd run through a brick wall head first with out a helmet on for this club, for that he has my respect, Nicho has had his hand tied more than any other manager in our recent history, so it's difficult job, for that he has my sympathy.

However this is professional football, all of the above doesn't make Nicho immune from criticism, this team far to often this season has underperformed, there's enough in there to have avoid the drop comfortably, they might still achieve that, they should be further up the table than they are now, and for that he gets my criticism.

The next 4 games are massive, lets hope it's not already to late.

forevertufc wrote: 19 Feb 2017, 17:29 ....for me it's not just results, although some of them have been understandable, it's been performances, far to many tired and lazy performances, far to many games where we've lacked any structure or cohesion to our play, and at home, to see our set up, the way they have been of late against sides we could have a go at, seriously, been stood in the ground most of this season bored shitless at the football on show, there's no wonder so many have dropped off the gates.

That's because win or lose the players get the same money. No incentive to achieve, no fear of failure either. That's a rubbish way to run a professional football club or even a moderately supported semi-pro club.

forevertufc wrote: 19 Feb 2017, 17:29 Braintree who made into the play-off semi's last term with a player budget believed to be amongst the smallest in the division and certainly lower than ours, they did it by bringing players in from Tamworth ( yes players will relocate, to step up the ladder) Concord rangers and elsewhere below our level, on peanuts.

......and they motivate their players with a low basic and appearance money + points bonus

forevertufc wrote: 19 Feb 2017, 17:29 Shaun North through out his coaching career was known as a very diligent coach, spending a lot of free midweek time taking in games reporting back on players and teams. How many times as our management duo been and watched the likes of ; Poole, Dartford, Hungerford, Hampton + Richmond and others around the top 9 or so of the division below, to see if they've got any players who would add strength to our team, the sort of players who maybe young ambitious, who would fancy the chance to step up to full time football, in bid to further their careers, and would most likely to take a £300 a week deal, love to known, have a feeling the answer would be, they haven't. It's Nicho's job to know where the best young players are at our level, especially as he can't afford to bring in those who are proven. Nicho is a nice, decent down to earth, approachable man, we all know he goes above and beyond the job description he's paid for, and we all know he'd run through a brick wall head first with out a helmet on for this club, for that he has my respect, Nicho has had his hand tied more than any other manager in our recent history, so it's difficult job, for that he has my sympathy.

Spot on; in the afternoons and evenings you would find Northy on the motorway around the grounds. To look for Nicholson try looking for him picking his kid up from school or taking him to soccer tots. Nicholson wouldn't know a Poole, Dartford, Hungerford, Hampton + Richmond player if he got home to find his wife in bed with one!

Therein lies the problem; Torquay United neither demand that their manager operates in a certain manner nor have any idea of just what that manner should be and the make up of the squad with it's the constant arrival of loanees who are no use to the manager and the league table prove that.

merse btpir wrote: 19 Feb 2017, 07:58 Again............I'm not panning Nicholson

No ???? Well, you've fooled me. Gawd knows what your posts will be like when you start criticising him !

Merse, that's actually bullshit. I know for a fact he has a scouting network, I'm actually one of them. He has an eye for a player, the fact he doesn't get many of his targets is not his fault. This situation was so avoidable, it's been on the cards for some time now but what we are seeing is the end of a run of seasons where we've undervalued the effect of investment in the playing squad.

I don't mind you pointing out his deficiencies but lets keep it honest.

Nicholson needs to be watching players himself after his 'scouts' have watched them because to be brutally honest half these loanees he gets in are simply not fit for purpose!

Obviously you manage real Madrid Merse btpir which is fair enough but to go on about what my brother does in his own time and anything to do with his family is nothing to do with you and no need for any of them to be brought up in any of your ridiculous topics. Everyone has an opinion which again is fair enough and that is fine but if a loving father picks his son up from school and takes him to a normal child's activity in between everything he does for the club is his choice. I can garauntee he goes and watches players as I am at his house more often than he is since he took over. As for going to Dartford and places scouting I suggest you dip your hand in your pockets and pay for the travel expenses or should he also pay for everything out of the little pay he gets and also little time he has with everything else he has to do for the club. I've never commented on these sites but as mentioned you have no right to bring my nephew or stupid remarks up about my sister in law. Obviously you will reply with such good advice like you have been telling everyone on here but for once don't talk a load of rubbish about people and stuff you don't no.

I'll reply with the league table showing his side two points off relegation and dropping, gates significantly down; pointless loanees ~ Palfrey, McCoulsky, Lee to name but three ~ brought in who (he himself) never considered fit for purpose; out of the FA Cup again without a penny being earned. THAT is the reality with the club on the edge of oblivion.

It's nothing to do with Real Madrid; it's simply not good enough, the people managing aren't good enough and don't expect everyone to tamely sit back and sing 'for he's a jolly good fellow'.

Christ if Dave is scouting for Nicholson we truly might as well give up hope

I know money is tight but Nico's signings have been a disaster. He signs loanee after loanee who never gets any gametime and replaces Blissett with Harrad another complete waste of money.

Our away record is nothing short of a disgrace. We have got creditable points against Macclesfield and Barrow, and a decent win against Gateshead but its a case of one step forwards and two steps backwards.

We have a crucial run of games coming up against so called "easier sides" - but to me these are the dangerous matches, as our current squad doesn't look anywhere near good enough to win them.

merse btpir wrote: 20 Feb 2017, 08:04 I'll reply with the league table showing his side two points off relegation and dropping, gates significantly down; pointless loanees ~ Palfrey, McCoulsky, Lee to name but three ~ brought in who (he himself) never considered fit for purpose; out of the FA Cup again without a penny being earned. THAT is the reality with the club on the edge of oblivion.

It's nothing to do with Real Madrid; it's simply not good enough, the people managing aren't good enough and don't expect everyone to tamely sit back and sing 'for he's a jolly good fellow'.

I think his issue was bringing his children into it, which is an extremely low blow to make, especially when, unless you are hanging out around the school gates, you have no idea of our manager's personal life.

It's hardly surprising that those running our club have taken a defensive and 'them against us' approach to the fanbase when things get so personal. Kevin Nicholson to date has been the one exception to this, and has engaged with fans on a personal level to an unprecedented extent. Even when he knows he will get nothing but abuse in reply he has never shirked from that. If his family members feel the need to come on here and defend his parenting from supporters then that's a terribly sad low that our club has sunk to.

For what it's worth, I see Kevin Nicholson as about the last asset we have left at the club. We've shrunk to a club with two full time non-football staff and have spent years driving fans away. The work in the community in the last year has been pretty much the sole positive in that time, and is the only thing we have that will attract the next generation of supporters. He has said that he is seen as the public face of the club, and within this he's been selling season tickets, meeting with sponsors, attending community events and god knows what else we don't hear about, all things that go well beyond his job description, and all for the benefit of TUFC.

You can't expect someone to manage a football club, rebuild the public face of the club from scratch and spend his whole life on a motorway. The fact that we don't have a professional infrastructure in place is a sign of the state the club is in - not a reflection of the manager. I bet he would love Shaun North and John Milton working up and down the country as Paul Buckle had, but those were different times. We are a mile away from those days, and if we ever are to get them back it will be by walking before we can run, and Kevin Nicholson is the perfect man for that in the bay. Sticking him on a motorway all week would be a shocking misuse of his talents, and no professional club has their manager operating in this way.

You named three players there. Jordan Lee was selected by a Premiership side for an FA Cup third round game the week before he joined us. Shawn McCoulsky scored 1 in 2 at the level below us and is highly rated at Bristol City. If you can't afford to pay anything, then I think those are two quite good shouts on paper. Ashley Barnes didn't work out for us either, but is now in the Premiership. It happens. Palfrey/Ambalu were on an extended trial at a time when our subs bench for a professional game were: Nicholson, Palfrey, Ambalu. Without them at that time, two injuries would have meant we finished with less than eleven players. That's the context of those signings. You also can't suggest we look at lower league rough diamonds and then use every example of this not working out as a bad trialist.

Overall we are a mess and have been for years. I think that we have the right manager in place, and it's almost literally ever other single thing about the club that needs to be improved before I would look at our manager. Football fans are often short sighted, but I think the vast majority of our fans would also rather see him stay, and oversee a professionally run football club.

Gulliball wrote: 20 Feb 2017, 12:41 He has said that he is seen as the public face of the club, and within this he's been selling season tickets, meeting with sponsors, attending community events and god knows what else we don't hear about, all things that go well beyond his job description, and all for the benefit of TUFC.

All of which is very admirable but will not help with his primary objective which has now been downgraded to keeping us in this division.

As Merse said earlier it was KN who set his own target of challenging for promotion and playing football we can proud of. He's achieved neither. He knew his budget and this is HIS squad.

Being a football manager is a hard job, demanding long hours on the road scouting players...you only need to have read Garry Nelson's excellent "Left Foot in the Grave" to understand that. He talks about driving hundreds of miles to watch a reserve team player and he never even got on the pitch!

I don't doubt his love for the club and passion for it do well but his record shows that this might not be enough.

Firstly, no need to bring Nicholsons family into it
Second, if that is true regarding no win bonus it would explain some of the performances . With 20 or so minutes to go
when we are losing or drawing at home and it's kitchen sink time, nothing happens !
My cousin played for the reserves in the late seventies and even they got a win bonus !

That's an excellent post, Gulliball - one of the most sensible and realistic posts on here for a long time. I disagree with you on one point, though. You say "I bet he would love Shaun North and John Milton working up and down the country as Paul Buckle had, but those were different times. We are a mile away from those days". Nope - we're a million miles away. You also say that 'literally every other thing about the club needs to be changed'. Yes - except I would exempt the groundsman (whose name I should remember, but I don't !) who. in my view, does a great job in maintaining the playing surface so well.

No 'win bonuses' is a nonsense as desperado posts, but that is not up to the manager. That is a Board decision.

Merse - whilst you go on about loan signings, somehow you suffer a memory lapse. What about Fitzpatrick, Kieffer Moore, Racine (who most would agree would have been a good signing if it wasn't for his serious injury), Hodgkiss and Rooney? I'm sure Nico would have liked to have kept Rooney for more than a month if the money was there. They have all been useful signings. Some of your posts make good sense, but your rantings about the manager have become obsessive. And whatever your views, personal abuse doesn't reflect very well on you.

Ans don't forget the gateman (49)!

tomogull wrote: 20 Feb 2017, 16:53 Some of your posts make good sense, but your rantings about the manager have become obsessive. And whatever your views, personal abuse doesn't reflect very well on you.

Not intended to be 'personal abuse' ~ it's an illustration of the state of the club; the total failure of a manager to meet his own mission statement targets and the fate awaiting the club if nothing is done to change this situation.

Cut out the nicey-nicey stuff, the hospital visits and having kids around the training ground; kick some of these dysfunctional players in the goolies and get some points or else we're ****!

IF the targets are achieved then let the kids back in, go back to playing Florence Nightingale and bask in the glory.