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The EU admits that one in four people in the EU is living on the verge of poverty. Anyone still want to remain in?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/812639 ... inequality

The Remainers and Remoaners are calling for a 'soft Brexit' following the general election result. But this result in no way negates the democratic decision of the British people made last year in the referendum to leave the EU, which was hardly mentioned in the election campaigns. Opinion polls suggest that an even larger proportion of people now support Brexit this year than was the case last year. The likes of Tim Farron (who has admitted he will do everything he can to thwart Brexit) now claiming a part in the upcoming negotiations is hypocritical in the extreme.

Let's remind ourselves again: the nation has decided to leave the EU, which means leaving the single market which means (thankfully) no more open borders: we take back control of our borders, our laws, our money, and our fishing grounds, we become an independent sovereign nation again, with no more tariffs raised against non-EU goods and food, and with great opportunities opening up for worldwide trade. This will not stop us trading with EU countries any more than such freedom stops the rest of the world from trading.

As for the EU itself, originally sold to the UK public as a trading bloc, it is as anti-democratic as ever, and is pushing even harder for political integration. It cares not how the tottering Eurozone has caused mass unemployment in Mediterranean countries. We are far better off out of the EU: how many terrorists and extremists have made use of the EU rules on free movement of people to enter the UK? http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06 ... ent-rules/

Gullscorer wrote: 14 Jun 2017, 11:34 The likes of Tim Farron (who has admitted he will do everything he can to thwart Brexit) now claiming a part in the upcoming negotiations is hypocritical in the extreme.

Not much danger of that now, although to be frank I would be surprised if anyone even noticed he was gone.

The UK will be £150 billion a year better off without a EU deal: http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... heresa-May

And we would completely control our own borders, our own laws, our own money and taxes, our own fishing grounds, our own trade with the rest of the world, and our own destiny.

Do not capitulate to the EU control freaks, the Remainers and Remoaners, and the 'soft Brexiters'..

Poll: 70% back Brexit, but only 37% have confidence in Theresa May to deliver: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06 ... ck-brexit/

This is going well then. The UK now experiencing productivity sinking through the floor, a pound worth virtually equivalent to the Euro, an NHS that is struggling to recruit and politicians that don't even know the rules of what the country has signed up to.

Admittedly all of the above (except the last point) may have occurred by staying in the EU, however I am yet to understand what the benefits of Brexit are? Can someone enlighten me or is it purely the £350 million extra per week that the NHS will get because the bus said so?

Just shows where democracy for the ignorant takes you.......did anyone who voted 'leave' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?

This is actually getting beyond boring now, I mean how many times does it need to be explained to some, the country has not left the EU yet, nobody will know how this will effect the countries economy until 2,5,10 years after the country has departed, current economic data is false no matter which way your views are biased.

Those with an I.Q of 9 or above, who aren't bone idle and possess the ability to read, who actually bothered to read what the slogan on the side of the bus said, which before any other media led idiot says (actually nothing to do with Farage or UKIP) will know, no promise was ever made to spend all £350 million on the NHS.

This belief that only thick people voted to leave the EU, enough now, stop it. Millions of highly intelligent people voted to leave, on facts and evidence , that led them to believe that was the right thing to do, as did many millions who voted to remain, there were think people on both sides of the argument, how many more times zzzzzzzz.

Millions of people voted for Corbyn in the last general election his polices and his manifesto were very popular, and touched the hearts of many. When will people realize that Corbyn could not deliver much of those promises whilst this country remains within the EU, for a start, national owned or backed industry , not allowed with in the EU, Corbyn knows this amongst other things he couldn't do, that why he wants this country out, always has, don't try to deny Merse, you know it full well.

Even the new French president needs treaty change to deliver on some of his promises, best of luck with that one macron, hope all 27 countries agree, you only have 5 years.

http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case/10 ... withdrawl/

Read my to the point and brief post again Dave ~ I asked 'did anyone who voted 'leave' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?'

We can all see with our own eyes that the economy is already being adversely affected by the prospect of Brexit; the National Health is losing staff hand over fist at the prospect of Brexit and that's before any negotiated exit strategy has been arrived at.

So be it; that's what you wanted and that's what you're getting brought about by voters who had not a clue what they were instigating and negotiators who don't have a clue as to where their mission will take them.

The Brexit issue has nothing to do with party politics so Jeremy Corbyn's take on it is no more than Theresa ('Remain') May's. Rather ironic that we end up with a Prime Minister who was fervently 'remain' trying to devise a strategy for leaving. But that's why I brought the ignorance of the voter into it because the whole shebang is a complete and utter shambles which could have been avoided had David Cameron not embarked on his vanity project to defeat the Brexiteers within his own right wing party and falling flat on his arrogant arse before jumping ship and saying 'nothing to do with me guv'.

merse btpir wrote: 05 Jul 2017, 21:39 The Brexit issue has nothing to do with party politics so Jeremy Corbyn's take on it is no more than Theresa ('Remain') May's. Rather ironic that we end up with a Prime Minister who was fervently 'remain' trying to devise a strategy for leaving.

The FACT is that with the prospect of parliamentarians from both sides of the House using a series of votes on the Repeal Bill and other Brexit laws to rip up some of Mrs May’s “red lines” that stand in the way of a 'Norway-style' deal on trade.

This hung parliament can exert a really powerful influence because everything changed on June 8th when the Prime Minister lost her majority.
Mrs May will realise how much things have changed when she starts to lose amendments on the Repeal Bill. Support has grown among backbenchers for a deal that would keep the UK in the European Economic Area, which Mrs May flatly ruled out and she will find that the most powerful and influential people in the House now will be the Leader of the Opposition and those tabling the amendments..........now THAT is how democracy works and I predict those who expressed a wish to leave will have to live with a Brexit so soft it will look like remain!

forevertufc wrote: 05 Jul 2017, 21:18 Those with an I.Q of 9 or above, who aren't bone idle and possess the ability to read, who actually bothered to read what the slogan on the side of the bus said, which before any other media led idiot says (actually nothing to do with Farage or UKIP) will know, no promise was ever made to spend all £350 million on the NHS.

"no promise was ever made to spend all £350 million on the NHS."


That's about as credible as saying this is the number 2 to Teignmouth!

That's the problem when people in general read a strap line, and read what they think it says, rather than reading what it actually says. No where in that strap line does it say anything about spending all £350 million on the NHS, and that's point I was making.

I did answer your the point you making in, in your brief post, said this is getting boring now, so not going to go back over everything in great detail.

This country has entered into negotiations to withdraw from the EU, so there is uncertainty, currency investors are backing against the pound, as you would expect them to do, as I'm sure many are aware any currency can rise and fall in an hour, let alone a day, as said, any economic data right now is false whether it suggests Brexit will be either be positive or negative regards the UK economy , and will be until we leave, or backslide and remain within the EU, that shouldn't be to difficult for anyone to understand.

Yes I knew, millions knew, when we voted leave, it meant leave, there is no such thing as hard or soft Brexit, this country has to withdraw from all aspects of the EU, then negotiate a trade/political deal with the EU, as, has be said so many times, with up to a potential 750,000 export jobs at risk in Germany alone, and many jobs at risk in France and Italy, the three main eurozone economies, yes they will do a trade deal with us.

This was never about withdrawing our country from the world, it's about withdrawing our country from the EU, and in doing so, opening up our country to the entire world, which is not possible as members of the EU.

This was never about ending immigration, immigration is a good thing, it is about, and yes I'm going use the word 'control' it's about ending the rights of EU nationals coming into this country unable to speak a word of English (and please no one needs to patronize me here) with out a job, or the promise of a job, with priority to social housing, and able to claim benefits from day one, having paid nothing into our country's purse strings, and if you don't think that's happening, wake up.

Why does anyone think big business leaders like Branson want to remain in the EU, no, it really is not for the good of me and you, it is for their own self interest, same as the government, it helps keep the poorest of society poor, supply and demand of labour for a start, if there's 100 people for every vacancy they get away with paying £7.50 hour and giving the absolute minimum in employment conditions, and so on, and on.

Brexit may have cross party support, but is party political, those who voted in the last election must realize in many ways their vote didn't count for much, as said, some of the key policies in Corbyn's manifesto couldn't be implemented with out EU treaty change, such as re-nationalization of the railways for a start, Corbyn knows this, that's why the great repeals bill will go through, there will enough support from both sides of the house to achieve it, with out to many amendments, and if the lords try to stall things, I'm sure Corbyn wont to be to bothered in supporting any attempt to smack them down.

Anyway enough now.

forevertufc wrote: 08 Jul 2017, 07:29That's the problem when people in general read a strap line, and read what they think it says, rather than reading what it actually says. No where in that strap line does it say anything about spending all £350 million on the NHS, and that's point I was making.
....... the great repeals bill will go through, there will enough support from both sides of the house to achieve it, with out to many amendments, and if the lords try to stall things, I'm sure Corbyn wont to be to bothered in supporting any attempt to smack them down.

But so many did 'read' the strap line and voted accordingly!

.......they are the politically ignorant who exercised their democratic right. Don't be so sure there won't be a concerted and wholesale campaign of resistance through the amendment protocol to the Great Repeal Bill. May's no longer in control of her own party and needs to relaunch her political mission to deliver Brexit and 'help ordinary working people' as she puts it, and needs to put last month’s disastrous (for her) election result behind her.

By losing the government’s majority, she’s reopened the debate over how Brexit should unfold, with some of her own most senior Conservative ministers now emboldened to disagree with her...that is not what she arrogantly assumed when calling the election and it is not conducive to entering negotiations in what will be a helter-skelter two year time window. May’s credibility is shot to pieces and her authority is draining away. Emboldened by that, the EU is doubling-down on its hard-line stance toward Britain and there is deadlock over a deal to protect the rights of 4 million citizens as the titans of industry clamor for greater clarity on Brexit........May dropped an almighty bollock in calling that needless election and handed opportunities to the Opposition within her own Parliament and to the other side of the table in Brussels that had she been more savvy; she need never have done.

Her Chancellor publicly calls for a Brexit deal that keeps Britain close to the EU market ~ that is definitely not what you envisage or voted for Dave ~ warning “it would be madness” to reject trade ties with Brussels".

At the same time, opposition politicians are plotting to rip up May’s draft law that will repeal the U.K.’s membership in the EU and set a new legal framework for the country after it withdraws from the bloc. That signature piece of legislation will hit Parliament next week........she is a dead woman walking!

May is also under pressure to prove she cares about Britain’s poorest and most vulnerable citizens after such a flat-footed response to the Grenfell Tower fire. Corbyn’s populist ~ and electorally popular, whether you like it or not ~ anti-austerity agenda prompted some of May’s own party to demand a softening of her plans for fiscal restraint, alongside calls to increase the pay of fire-fighters, police, nurses and teachers....the political pendulum in this country has swung violently and only needs to 'tip over' now for the Tories to lose power. That is no basis from which to be negotiating Brexit and the EU team know it.

Most Tories were never really sold on her social and economic agenda even before her disastrous election campaign, the idea that it’ll make Brexit work better seems a little far-fetched in view of the rather more immediate challenges posed by leaving the EU and they will panic and stab her in the back; mark my words!

"......did anyone who voted 'leave' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?"

merse btpir wrote: 08 Jul 2017, 08:34 But so many did 'read' the strap line and voted accordingly!

.......they are the politically ignorant who exercised their democratic right.

Her Chancellor publicly calls for a Brexit deal that keeps Britain close to the EU market ~ that is definitely not what you envisage or voted for Dave ~ warning “it would be madness” to reject trade ties with Brussels".


"......did anyone who voted 'leave' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?"

On why people voted leave is an issue I think we're at the point where I believe it's a case of agreeing to disagree. I really do not believe any kind of significant numbers of people made their decision to vote leave of the back that strap line, or even had the NHS at the forefront of their mind, the one thing that senior leave and remain campaigners totally agree on, the single biggest issue that swung the referendum was immigration, the vast majority of people that voted leave need to be credited with more intelligence, than to have read something on the side of a bus, and gone, that's it I'm voting leave.

Come on Merse, we're now just over a year since the referendum, there's plenty of evidence out in the public domain that's shows, both 'leave' and 'Remain' told a fair number of half truth's and even lie's, both sides we're clearly guilty of using scare tactics, underhanded strategy, and fake news to win your votes.

did anyone who voted 'remain' in the referendum really make an informed choice borne of truthful information?"


Having feeling the answer to both questions is exactly the same.

As said I voted leave and meant leave. Of course the UK has to trade with the EU, it's vital, the point is, I believe. although could be wrong, the EU has 50 free trade deals with countries around the globe, they've just signed one with Japan, are we really saying all these countries have accepted the four key principles of the EU, are we saying Japan has accepted free movement people, I very much doubt that, there's no reason why our country can not do the same deal with the EU, and if they refuse, it will just prove the long held opinion I've had on the EU, long before any referendum was called, to have been right all along.

merse btpir wrote: 08 Jul 2017, 08:34
By losing the government’s majority, she’s reopened the debate over how Brexit should unfold, with some of her own most senior Conservative ministers now emboldened to disagree with her...that is not what she arrogantly assumed when calling the election and it is not conducive to entering negotiations in what will be a helter-skelter two year time window. May’s credibility is shot to pieces and her authority is draining away. Emboldened by that, the EU is doubling-down on its hard-line stance toward Britain and there is deadlock over a deal to protect the rights of 4 million citizens as the titans of industry clamor for greater clarity on Brexit........May dropped an almighty bollock in calling that needless election and handed opportunities to the Opposition within her own Parliament and to the other side of the table in Brussels that had she been more savvy; she need never have done.


May is also under pressure to prove she cares about Britain’s poorest and most vulnerable citizens after such a flat-footed response to the Grenfell Tower fire. Corbyn’s populist ~ and electorally popular, whether you like it or not ~ anti-austerity agenda prompted some of May’s own party to demand a softening of her plans for fiscal restraint, alongside calls to increase the pay of fire-fighters, police, nurses and teachers....the political pendulum in this country has swung violently and only needs to 'tip over' now for the Tories to lose power. That is no basis from which to be negotiating Brexit and the EU team know it.

Not going to answer every single point here, I do however agree with some of your sentient.

The Grenfell tower tragedy was unthinkable, I do not think for one minute it was in anyway the fault of the national government, however I do agree the response from the government has been worse than pitiful, agree teachers, fire-fighters, police, all NHS staff, and our armed forces, do not just need better pay, that's a given, they need better support as well, particularly those leaving our armed forces, who've been sent to the four corners of the world, been involved in fire fights, some sustained horrific injuries, whist doing their duty, borne from a political decision I'm sure they don't understand, and then left to fry.

The decision to call the election crass stupidity, yes May has lost all credibility, her personal campaigning, was worse than pathetic, but it depends on who the Tories elect as their new leader, we all know it's going to happen sooner rather than later, as to where Tory party thinking is on Brexit, says Jacob rees-mogg was elected leader, nothing changes.

You only have to read and listen to what Len mccluskey was and others close to Corbyn were saying just days before the election that Corbyns performance came as a complete shock to everyone, was it down to free tuition, the poor performance of May and the Tories, or Corbyn's policies, the last election proved 6 weeks can be along time in politics let alone 6 months, time will tell.