Torquay United Fans Forum

Gullscorer wrote:

Superb name for a band this.

forevertufc wrote:http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Linco ... story.html

http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Linco ... story.html

Most people think Dyke is a c=ck and the Lincoln chairman a joker. There are a whole host of lower league clubs in trouble, and relegation from the league has a habit of finishing some of them off completely, however, to many people with in the game would oppose these plans, so will never happen. Playing in a League 2 south division with current southern based League2/Conference premier clubs would help our club massively, as it would for some many others North and South .

stefano wrote: Quality over quantity these days Andy

Yeah, certainly looks that way man. :na:

forevertufc wrote:No one has actually blamed Thea don't think any of us can ever pay back Thea in money or gratitude for what the Bristow family has done for our club . Thea is not a business person and freely admits that, she needed support and didn't get it from any quarter, as a result bad decisions have been made that have led the club to where it is today, no one can hide from that. When the club brings some one in to provide footballing expertise, who's only real knowledge of football consists of refereeing the Western League when the Beatles still topped the charts, then, well, you know.

The process the club are going through now was badly needed, it was something I hoped for, now it's happening, all we can do is hope it leads to a positive future for the club.

Spot on Dave.

Upon reading the title of the thread to myself and saying it out loud really quickly i actually did think it was a book title penned by Alan Knill and referring to his squad of the 2014 relegation season................

Try it. Works for me............. =D

As i've said a million times before. IMO the club and Thea have been badly let down by grown men who found the going too much. I accept that they have put cash in (at least i think they have) but they should have just been honest and admitted that things had gone tits up and they couldn't cope anymore or put any more money in. Thea has asked for help because she is struggling. The fans are aware of this and it is called communication. Thea is a golden woman and is worth ten of the other board members. Not because she put in more cash but because she comes across as an honest and thoroughly decent and humble human being.

Mr K. Thomas is in now to help her and although i so wished when i first saw his name that it was Mr Kenny Thomas, the excellent early 90's crooning pop superstar :Oops: .

I was hoping he was going to come out with an official club statement reading, "Look, it's a tough gig i've walked into - perhaps tougher than when i did the Bath Moles club in front of 12 people when i was starting out but i've gotta get the best of you. You're support has been out of this world, so outstanding baby. I'm thinking about your love, errrrr i mean club".

Mr Thomas is in situ now to look at what needs to be done and like someone else said, it looks for all intents and purposes that he is there to steady things up whilst new investors are sought. So still leaves the club in limbo but i'm glad for one that Thea has asked for help and that the snakes and ladders game that has been played on a board only full of snakes, and the downward spiral partly created by lots of people having their heads up their arses can now hopefully be reversed.

Don't worry, the ladders have arrived.

It is no secret that the majority of lower league and indeed conference clubs are struggling, some more than others. Some are more effectively managed and operated than others and some simply have bigger crowds and more resources than others.

It is so very sad to see clubs with a great tradition and history like Hereford, Darlington, Stockport and others suffer, some even vanishing off the face of the earth.

I believe that regionalisation of leagues 1 and 2 and also the conference would reduce costs for clubs in terms of travel and hotels and would also mean bigger crowds and more away fans. There could be a north and south with 12 teams in each and the winner of each goes up automatically. The second and third placed teams from each section play off with the winners going into the play off final (north v south) where the eventual winner of that joins the other two in the league above.

Ok, but 4 teams from league 1 get relegated i hear you say. Correct. But with restructuring the leagues into regions, at the same time the leagues all have a '3 UP 3 DOWN' rule as standard. Even in the conference 3 teams go up and 3 come down from league 2. This would make things a more open playing field and wouldn't see teams who drop into the conference go out of business or go close to it. Those ex league teams like Torquay would have more of an opportunity to get promoted.

I strongly feel that the smaller teams are getting smaller and the bigger teams getting bigger and it is apparent that those who are the top of the tree don't give a shot for the tradition and history of English football. English football IS the lower leagues too and these teams should be given a fairer crack of the whip. Lower league teams are really struggling to keep their heads above water and i believe that radical restructuring is necessary to save football at the bottom end. If those at the top won't help then at least those who make the rules can make it easier for those teams with zero cash to survive.

Obviously there will always be clubs so badly run that clubs will run the risk of going bust but generally speaking i just think some clubs who have hit on hard times just need a helping hand. Many lower league clubs are heavily tied to the communities they represent and this is of great social importance and not just sporting. Communities are dying out as it is. Change is needed now IMO.

Any thoughts?

Hello.........

Hello.....

Anybody?..................

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The only person to respond will get a big thumbs up symbol from me and perhaps even a love heart thingy! Can't say fairer.

BayGull wrote: Unless he is a multimillionaire with 'money to burn' - somewhat like Mrs Bristow - Okay, so he may well want to make the club more viable, but there has to be something in it for him, and in this day and age that something has to be MONEY!

Exactly. I'd have thought that was implicit.

So other than stating the obvious and saying that he had joined to try and make money i suggested that he had no ulterior motive. Motives in terms of some underhand scheme to try and bleed the club dry, leave them up shit creek and then **** off into the ether.

He will want to make the club more viable and he will want to make some money like you say. I don't see that as an ulterior motive but just normal business behaviour. Why is making money an ulterior motive? It is the perhaps the primary reason this bloke has joined.

He can make all the money he likes so long as he doesn't fiddle or operate out of the clubs means and i don't think people should be suspicious of the bloke before he has even set foot in the door, at least not without good reason. It is not helpful and someone is always looking for a negative before anything is given a chance.

This bloke COULD herald a new start and already the suspicion has surfaced. Give the man a fighting chance at least.

Neal wrote:"If anyone neutral was to compare our squad to others I'd be very surprised if they didn't put us top eight"

Against what criteria?

Why?

Can any different manager get better results out of 1 set of players, sometimes, not always.

I don't know how many on here still do any sport seriously, not professionally but serious about trying to improve. I do. And I can tell you form is a bloody frustrating thing. I can perform great 1 day, the next day I don't, the conditions etc are the same. Look at some of the best players in the world, Mezil Ozil, on paper should be brilliant, been fairly useless at Arsenal and a kid who was out on loan at Charlton keeping him out. That can scenario can be repeated a thousand times. Same goes with Managers.

Our squad on paper means absolutely nothing. Why is it one season a player looks great or even for a few games, then doesn't, we have seen this time and time again. The CV on any player means nothing, its how they perform "Today" and you never know that. I asked an ex Torquay manager this very question a while ago, he said to me, I looked in their eyes as they walked in on a Saturday morning and I could tell straight away the ones who weren't up for it, but with a small squad you have no choice but play them.

A lot of the success managers have is down to luck. Luck that they take over a set of players who have got some potential AND want to do something about it. Luck with injuries, the luck that at least 1 of the 3 almost open goals against Altrincham went in. Luck that at the time of taking over the club has some financial strength. I could go on. There could be some managers out there who MIGHT be able to get another 10% out of this current set, BUT none of you on here or anyone else would know who they are. Its a lottery. Ling had a strategy to get 1-0's in season 1, he faded, and to be honest was slagged off on here for dire football, so that wasn't good enough.

How many managers at this level, have CV's that are a total success, none, because they wont be at this level if they do have.

You'll be looking a long time son, hardly anyone posts on this site anymore.

Interesting post though Neal, always a good read yours - open and honest.

If i may comment on the first point you raise about Mesut Ozil and 'form'.

You will always get players who perform for one club and not another or perform for their club and then suddenly start struggling and failing to replicate that form again. I think that so long as a player continues to do the things he has belief in then eventually he will find the right fit. For example, Fernando Torres. I've watched him a few times now he is back at Atletico and he looks reborn. Maybe a combination of feeling secure AND naturally being able to fit into the way they play. At Chelsea he looked totally out of place and always struggled but i think it was because of their style of play. Just didn't suit him.

How can a player go from starring for Spain, Atletico Madrid and then Liverpool to being shite overnight? The answer is he can't. He was never shite, just a particular club at a particular time didn't play to his strengths and his confidence drained. As someone who suffers from social anxiety and a lack of confidence i cannot begin to describe the feeling you get when occasionally some confidence is discovered within oneself. It's like you are a different person. That transfers into your life as it transfers onto the football pitch if you are a footballer.

As for managers. I don't think this applies. When you are a player on the pitch playing with confidence you will automatically make passes, take shots and so on without even thinking about it because you are 'in the moment' and reacting to impulses as they happen. If you are confident these impulsive reactions to pass, shoot or whatever often turn out to be the right decisions even though one hasn't even thought about them. They are instinctive.

As a manager i feel that before a game it's all about research. Learn about the opposition and how they are going to play, learn about their danger men and how you will combat them and learn about their key strengths whether that be set pieces or hitting on the break. Don't place too much emphasis on this though, just have your team aware and well drilled and competitive.

But it's during the game where plaudits are earned and i believe it's now called 'game management'. In actual fact i think that making decisions in-game is a piece of piss. Just use your noggin and you won't go joggin'. Make common sense substitutions. For example (and not exclusive in CH's reign) take York v Torquay last season where Torquay lost 1-0. I was there. York were shit, Torquay were slightly shitter but not a lot in it. York 1-0 up going into the last 30 with the game petering out. If i were in charge i'd have just gone for broke and stuck forwards on and shouted my knackers off for them to get forward and put them under pressure. If they had have broken away and won 2 or 3 nil then so be it. Torquay would have lost anyway as they were already 1-0 down. What was the **** point in being conservative and trying to look studious?

This is my bug bear with managers and a trend that CH set that made me believe he is nowhere near competent enough to manage a football club. It's called common sense with a twinge of desire. One for Coronation Street viewers here, if you were in a minibus crash and the bus was precariously hanging off a mountain top then upon waking from unconciousness would you take it easy as you feel a bit poorly and sit tight which would mean going down with the minibus or would you take action to get yourself out of the bus. If you failed you die but there might be a chance by taking positive action that you escape the minibus and get to safety.

This is the perfect analogy for that night at York and for the whole of TUFC's league 2 season under him. Torquay failed because of Knill but also because CH failed to take risks when risks became the only viable solution to survival. This was because of fear. Fear of failure. Any manager who has a fear of failure is in the wrong job.

The story you tell about the manager having no choice but to play a player despite gut feeling that they ain't up for it i don't subscribe to. If a player is not up for it then they get dropped. If it's a youth trainee that replaces them then so be it. If HE fails then it's the manager that gets it in the neck. Fine, explain why you chose X player instead of Y and have some faith. Or you could do what CH has done this season and play it safe by opting for players that got us relegated just because they 'are experienced'. Give me 'inexperienced but willing to shit blood' over 'experienced but don't give two shits' anyday. So you DO have a choice whether to play them or not, it all depends on whether you are prepared to elicit change by sticking your neck out and making the changes or whether you favour self preservation.

Self preservation always sees the cowards revealed in the end and always results in the sack anyway. Just that the individual gets a bit more time to deceive the fans, rip off the club and recoup a bit of cash before they get found out.

It is the lack of common sense and inability to see the obvious which will see CH end up owning a restaurant on the coast somewhere and not become a professional football manager.

As for luck. No such thing as luck. If i win the lottery tonight is that luck? I'd like to think that it was because my 6 numbers came out and nobody elses did and that is why i won. Is that luck or the fact that 6 numbers HAD to be drawn and i happened to have all 6. I find £20 on the street. It will be found eventually but because I found it is it luck? Or is it because it happened to be in my line of sight as i was walking down the street? Is that luck or eventuality?

No manager gets luck.

Ling failed ultimately although he was damn bloody close to the perfect formula for success in lower league football. He set his team out to be hard to beat and a well drilled team with a smattering of really, really good players got to the play offs. I hardly ever enjoyed a Ling side play although i did enjoy the results and i guess that is the crux. Would you happily pay good money and travel the UK to watch a team try and defend for 90 minutes and hopefully nick one on the break? Be completely starved of entertainment after a 4 hour drive up to Rochdale but a deflected corner meant a 1-0 win? I wasn't happy with this and although i didn't want Real Madrid, i still wanted us to pose some sort of sustained attacking threat now and then.

Ling lost fans despite relative success because the style of football, not now and again but nearly EVERY WEEK was predictable negativity. It got too much and Ling refused to modify this to adopt a slightly more adventurous approach. Make no mistakes, after Buckle, Ling's style eventually became comatose. We'd go away and literally HAVE to score with our only real attempt at goal or we'd come away with nowt. Ling experienced some health issues and parted company but he thought a particular system worked and when it began failing he lack the flexibility to change and in actual fact he failed to identify that he had been found out. I don't know if his illness made this more difficult and i wouldn't like to guess but that is what happened.

Ling had talent but common sense failed him and obviously he was ill too so mitigating circumstances. He became stubborn and inflexible and when a specific tactic became ineffective these were 2 traits that weren't going to help change things.

Knill, Knill was simply a complete buffoon and i do feel guilty a little for using such vulgar terminology but the fact is he was. He was slightly ahead in the buffoonery stakes of all the people who 3 months in weren't even remotely concerned about his management. It was pretty obvious, as it was 3 or 4 games in to CH's tenure, that he didn't really have any idea whatsoever what he was doing and prolonging this idiots stay at TUFC just made it more difficult for the new man to turn things around. That new man was CH therefore timing didn't really matter in the end.

Knill has no mitigating circumstances. He was just bizarrely clueless and there is not one particular management fault you can pick up on that he could be addressing. He was just so dim all ends up that i can't even begin to comprehend what went on in his head.

Managers earn respect not just for results but for how they conduct themselves and the manner in which they manage the team. If they seem totally clueless over a period of time then it most probably is because in actual fact they are. That is why CH needs to go as soon as possible.

Torquay player legend but no managerial common sense.

Common sense is innate so if it's not there then you're going nowhere.

I don't think anybody but himself will truly know if Mr Thomas is genuine in his 'interest' in TUFC but it is more positive to believe the best in someone than to spend all of the while doubting. Unless that person is a politician, member of the clergy or admits to enjoying saturday night television.

It goes without saying that anyone being linked who has previously forged a bad reputation with a number of different clubs needs to be treated very suspiciously indeed but in the case of Kelvin Thomas i think his overall profile doesn't suggest that he has any ulterior motive for the move.

I actually think that at this moment in time it is a great relief for the club and the fans, not least due to the fact that some on here were 'predicting' administration and other domesday scenario's. Thea has quite clearly come to the end of the line in terms of propping up the club almost singlehandedly and she needs a break and some help. The fans need a break too and some good news and a sense of direction.

I didn't see much assistance or direction by all those who hid behind her and also from the ones who bailed out leaving her with the last straw to break the camel's back. That's just my opinion and the way i see it and a small part of why i left the club. Thea is a strong lady but EVERYONE needs a shoulder at some point and EVERYONE needs a bit of peace now and again to gather themselves. These last 2 years have probably been interesting but nonetheless overwhelming for Thea and now she has that support in the shape of Mr Thomas.

I have my own views on the way forward for the club and it involves fan ownership but that is just not possible at this juncture although i strongly feel this should be addressed and worked towards right now because the club are likely to be in the same boat again in the future. However, the next best thing is possibly what Mr Thomas can bring.

The only other option was to continue along the same path and eventually Thea would end up potless and the club would die. That won't happen now, at least for the foreseeable.

I'm really chuffed for you lot and now i can only hope that the club can move forward and this bloke can get some stability back and actually open the lines of communication between club and fan.

First of all CH should be relieved of his duties and then i'm 100% sure the good times will be just around the corner. A new beginning.

The season starts here!

Billy Bodin making a success of league football will never happen in a million years and that includes getting a hat trick against York. I'm usually a sucker for bad luck but what you suggest just isn't possible.

No surprise my 10,000th post has to include Billy Bodin.....................

nickbrod wrote:Aldershot after losing 0-1 at home last night to Kidderminster have today sacked manager Andy Scott. Aldershot are slipping closer to the relegation zone faster than we are.
Whatever is happening off the pitch at the moment CH needs more League points not only for the team's safety but also for his own position.
The warning bell is ringing I suspect.

Probably the reason why he lost his job........... =D

Emile Sinclair signs for the Minstermen on a deal until summer 2016. Whilst not an ex Gull, his signing led me to the Northampton Town forum to see what they were saying about him and i stumbled upon a few posters who confirmed that Billy Bodin began training with the Cobblers today with a view to a short term deal.

Well done Knill, another masterstroke!

I'm sure the Cobblers fans will show their gratitude in the end. :devil:

PhilGull wrote:
Sources? Have there been any noises from 'the dressing room' to suggest CH has lost it?
I wouldn't read to much in to what any manager says in public,

The results and performances on the pitch are still the same though. =D

Whether CH throws tea cups or whether he takes the players out for dinner and a movie is not really the issue. The issue is that if he's tried both then he clearly finds it challenging to motivate or the club wouldn't be in as worse a predicament as they are now. Something that was obvious a few games into his tenure.

Yeah, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can do about it so now what happens?

On a similar theme but rather more small scale, perhaps those lofty bods in the tree canopies at Oxfam should maybe filter some of their 'generous' salary down to the people who give up their time to keep them in employment? =D

Neal wrote:unfortunately I don't think there are enough fans who could stump up £100, see the crowd funding total so far. And it would probably require 300 or 4 hundred to stump up at least £1000 each. It could be done, BUT... we would have to accept part -time football and most probably conf south. Which actually I would if I was an owner. The idea of TUST is great, the practicalities are not as I don't think you will find enough fans with enough money to put in. AND if you found the initial number to put in the required amount they would probably need to do this on a regular basis. THIS AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

IF..... 3 or 4 hundred did put up £1000 then I would also, but only once. So a fans buy out would definetly mean less money going into the club than what the board is now putting in. So for me that would mean part time. However, the plus point would be I would be a part owner and decision maker. mmmmmm pretty cool. But then we would be slagged off most probably every week because we had chosen the wrong manager, bad results, in a crap league. mmmm Is it worth it!!!! Probably not

I think you've sort of laid bare the grim reality of such an idea in your post Neal and although i don't like saying it because it feels like i'm criticising further but there just doesn't appear to be the drive or natural pull from enough fans at the club to make such a thing a viable long term option.

My vision for a totally fan owned club sadly doesn't stop short of chucking in a few hundred quid now and again either which makes it an even more daunting prospect.

I'd like the club to run sort of like a charity where first of all much of the money gets ploughed back into the club in some form or another. In addition much of the administration and commercial activity can be done by volunteers giving up their time to help out something they love. Just like an animal shelter for example. You pop down, give up a few hours say in the club shop if that's what you are particularly interested in and then go and watch the game. Programme compilers, there is no shortage of people on here that love to write and are interested in that side of things. Programme sellers - on a voluntary basis. Staff in the refreshment kiosk on a voluntary basis. Ok so it's a logistical nightmare but a paid volunteer co-ordinator could sort much of this stuff out and save the club loads of cash in wages for jobs that dedicated fans could do for free. You donate both time and money. Just like an animal charity.

Fans can do fundraising events to raise money, they can sell donated items, get involved in matchday activities and the possibilities are endless.

Obviously there are certain jobs at the club that cannot be done by volunteers but much of it can and in like killing two birds with one stone, the volunteer feels part of the club more than he/she ever did and the club saves cash.

I mean come on, the club has only a few thousand regular fans - how hard can it be to get things organised?

The voluntary sector is booming at the minute and i'm 100% sure that if the club forged links with local voluntary organisations then volunteering doesn't just have to be exclusively for Torquay fans. People interested in football, people NOT interested in football - it doesn't matter. There will be lots of things that volunteers can get involved with that will help their CV's and develop their social and employment prospects. Take the 2 thousand and odd Torquay fans and open this out to the whole of South Devon. These are opportunities, not problems.

As Neal said though, it would initially take a fair few quid and going forward much more devotion from people which is fine to profess to have if you are just rocking up every game and claiming to be doing your bit but the club needs a hell of a lot more to be sustainable. It needs to be self sufficient and so what if for the time being such a project could never work in the football league, currently Torquay are in the shtuck closer to the bottom of the conference with all and sundry pissed off to the eyeballs and firing off abuse and criticism at anything that moves on a matchday. All because of people who don't give a toss about the club. Whether it be players or some of those behind the scenes.

If you only have yourselves to be accountable to then there is nobody left to hammer. Issues get aired, everyone knows about them and they get sorted in an amicable democratically agreed solution. If Exeter fans or anyone else for that matter can't even manage this then they fully deserve a new investor who will come in and rip their club to bits. Serves them right.

I just hope everything gets sorted for you guys anyway and as quickly as possible because it's just been a conveyor belt of disasters at Plainmoor for few years now and you deserve a new lease of life and some real positive good times to enjoy and to look back on now with tales of how you got through it. I'll be watching what happens with interest but will only have something to say if it's positive. If it's more doom and gloom then i reckon you've got enough to worry about without my input. :}

Here's to Wednesday and looking on the bright side.

What are the options? Get taken over or continue to lose cash until the club goes under?

Ok so you spotted the deliberate mistake, the last one isn't really an option - it's an inevitability.

The first one is the only option. If some 'geezers' come in and destroy the club then it would have happened anyway. There is a slight chance that new investors could come in and stabilise things enough for the footballing equivalent of RMS Lusitania to limp back to port and be refitted. That is the hope and that is the only way forward.

There is / was another way forward which is the TUST and fans groups coming together to gradually generate capital and get a foothold into the club. Sadly, despite the newly found passion of the TUST, it has come too late. The demise that many fans saw coming years back is not far off and if fans had have done something proactive back then , well , it would have been better all round.

Torquay is miles from anywhere and although it does have hotels and sea, so does Bournemouth. A similarly sized club to Torquay if we are talking a few years ago but now look at them. They have found investors because they have the full package on their doorstep, a popular seaside destination, pretty easy access to London and the South East, plenty of potential for development, a fanbase that continues to grow (Torquay regularly got sub 4000 for home games in league 1 so even if that success was emulated once more, the interest just isn't there) and Bournemouth are within spitting distance of the Premier League.

Most struggling clubs in the past that have been taken over had massive potential to grow, attract fans and sponsors. Hull, huge catchment area and a large city, Swansea likewise. Fulham were perennial lower league strugglers in recent years but based in London (like Brentford who are doing well now too), even Brighton to some extent were struggling on low crowds a few years back.

Blackpool and Burnley to a lesser extent have both tasted success despite spending large periods in the lower leagues and they have grown their fanbase. Wigan too and their geography helped them in terms of attracting players etc.

Like others have said, Torquay United will never make anybody any money. I reckon if the club got into the Championship they would struggle to sell out Plainmoor some weeks. Anyone who buys the club needs to be a fan and genuinely wanting to see the club get back on track, possibly at a loss financially to themselves. Much like Thea although more Thea's would still be needed. If they don't fall into that category then they cannot have the interest of TUFC at heart simply because anybody else would either be investing for no or little return or perhaps even a loss. Again, like someone on here said, successful businessmen didn't get rich from buying tin pot football clubs.

The only way forward for TUFC is if the fans own it and run it so they can preserve it and blow all this pathetic babyish boardroom secrecy and silence out of the water once and for all. At the minute i see a take over as the only option short term and hopefully the new incumbents will have TUFC at heart and run it as a going concern until such a time as the fans can eventually have all or most of the say so in running the club.

The club belongs in the hands of the people who want to keep it going. Yes, other minor board members other than Thea have put money into the club to keep it going but if it weren't for 2000 coming through the gates still having been treated like they don't exist for the last few years then there wouldn't be a team to watch in Torquay. Because other than the fans, nobody else is in the slightest bit interested.

If the fans want the club to survive then they must own it.

The above probably has loads of technical inaccuracies in it and someone will no doubt post kindly informing me that i have no idea how a football club works and my ideas are ridiculous, unworkable pie in the sky and that's fine. I don't have much idea so you'd be right, and my God i hope you are too.

Fans are the past, the present and the future. Fans ARE the club. Get together and begin steps to save it, from little acorns and all that.