Ebbsfleet on Saturday

stefano · Post by **stefano** » 26 Apr 2018, 09:13

gateman49 wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 08:33 Hi Merse, I think the clue is in his name, he’s an exile like you.

No merse knows me well enough and where I live, though my user name does originate from my time working away in Italy and is just the italiano version of my real name. I didn't think the Ebbsfleet supporter would be coming my way, but I thought he may pass through Barton, Hele, and Newton Abbot if that was handy for someone. I can't make it as I have Gin & Jazz at Mount Edgecumbe. Bus in to Plymouth then the Cremyl ferry across the water. Perfect.....except for the rain

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 26 Apr 2018, 09:34

I've read up a bit about the Exeter thing and they took out a CVA (Company Voluntary Arrangement) by which the club was allowed to stop themselves from going under meaning no money for creditors as opposed to being allowed to write off some of the debt and repaying at least some of the money owed to creditors. I fail to see what else they could have done in the circumstances.

So if something happened to CO for example and the TUST purchased the club to save it and it owed money it couldn't pay, would you be happy for TUFC to go into liquidation? Or survive by setting up a CVA? I think it's what anybody would have done in similar circumstances because it was the only option. This is not the fans fault.

In addition, many of the creditors are still in partnership with ECFC and therefore still recouping money gradually if they haven't already.

As for the PFA loan. It's there to use. If it wasn't allowed then it wouldn't be available for clubs to use so i can't see what is wrong there? Other clubs can have a loan if they wish. It's not exclusive to Exeter City. It is now repaid.

All Exeter have done is found themselves in a survive or bust situation and chose survival by perfectly legal means.

Post by **Southampton Gull** » 26 Apr 2018, 09:53

They've used the PFA loan system several times Andy. I'd rather we just lived within our means than fleece creditors. They aren't the shining light you're trying to make them out to be. Without the Man Utd cup draw they would have gone bust.

fleetfanwest · Post by **fleetfanwest** » 26 Apr 2018, 10:26

Live in Somerset now.

fleetfanwest · Post by **fleetfanwest** » 26 Apr 2018, 10:28

stefano wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 07:24 The Babbacombe End is the away end (nearest the sea and also nearest end to Cary Park where you should park). Perhaps you could give the Torquay supporter a lift home after if you are going his way!

I live in Somerset now.

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 26 Apr 2018, 10:31

Those Exeter City owners didn't 'fleece their creditors'; those creditors were owed money by the previous administration.....

It's exactly what we would have to do if faced with a community/trust ownership in the future because if they refused or declined to do that then the FA would not permit them to own Torquay United.

Trusts do not exist ~ nor are permitted ~ to underwrite the losses of the club ownership. It's not within their legal remit under the Community Benefit Society legislation.

Supporters’ Trusts are typically constituted as Community Benefit Societies (CBS), a form of Co-operative that operates under a one-member one-vote principle. CBS’ are registered with the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), and any changes to their rules must be approved by the members and only become effective once the FCA has agreed them, checking they are in keeping with the spirit of the organisation. The members own all assets and liabilities collectively, and any profit made is either kept as reserves or reinvested to meet its objects. They are not charities and whilst they contain the word ‘Trust’ they do not follow the legal definition of a ‘Trust’.

Exeter City's and Torquay United's trusts are two of over 200 supporters trusts in the UK, with more than 50 now owning and running their clubs*. Many others have meaningful involvement through board representation, structured dialogue or campaigning as TUST is endeavouring to do. Over the country, trust members have raised more than £50 million to be reinvested back into their clubs and communities including £6 million through community shares projects. Supporters Direct use their unique position to develop policies and research to help each and every individual trust as well as generally improve sport and they in themselves are owned by the many different supporters trusts and community owned clubs.

* ‘supporter ownership’ (or similar phrases like ‘community ownership’) means that;

- A minimum of 50% +1 of the voting rights of the Club are controlled collectively by a democratic entity which has an open and inclusive membership
‘Democratic’ to mean the membership of the entity to work on a one member one vote principle
‘Inclusive’ to mean that there are no substantial barriers to participate as a voting member, with membership open to all that are sympathetic to the aims of the Club
Any profits are reinvested back into the Club as opposed to being distributed to shareholders.
The Club is committed to running as a sustainable business.
It’s not to say that other forms of ownership don’t work and should be ignored, but research suggests that Community Ownership opens up a number of benefits to a Club that are much harder to achieve or not possible to achieve in a privately owned Club.

brucie · Post by **brucie** » 26 Apr 2018, 11:16

Just think at 5pm on Saturday it will all be over and no more pain (well for a couple of months at least)

merse btpir · Post by **merse btpir** » 26 Apr 2018, 11:23

In my experience, the weeks immediately following a season (any season) are usually the most dangerous and loaded few weeks for anyone working for Torquay United!

TUST_Member_Rob · Post by **TUST_Member_Rob** » 26 Apr 2018, 12:14

brucie wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 11:16 Just think at 5pm on Saturday it will all be over and no more pain (well for a couple of months at least)

It will be earlier than that,

Its a 12:30pm kick off

Yorkieandy · Post by **Yorkieandy** » 26 Apr 2018, 12:22

Ok Dave and Merse. I've read your posts about Exeter and i am inclined to agree with Merse, however i want to point out what i think is / was the situation and get some feedback on whether my points are accurate or not before i can make my mind up definitively.

EXETER CITY:

1. Their dodgy owners get banged up thus leaving the club in trouble.
2. The fans / trust decide to take over and enter into CVA because they simply haven't the money to pay the bills.
3. They manage to survive and although they still have no money they are fulfilling their fixtures and paying the bills which include PFA loans to help.
4. They find themselves still unable to manage despite fans input and loans and are close to folding.
5. They suddenly get a lucky break and draw Man Utd in an FA Cup tie which allows them breathing space and time and money to sort things out and it was solely this one game which ensured the club survived and not the fans input.
6. They get on an even keel because of the FA Cup money alone and then start to develop their trust model further and recruit more members / fans.

This is the timeline of what i am thinking happened. Is it fair to say this is accurate?

TORQUAY UNITED:

1. Thea Bristow decides to call it a day and hands the club over debt free.
2. A buyer cannot be sought therefore a fans consortium headed up by Breedy takes control.
3. After a short period it becomes clear that Torquay don't really have a trust that can inject capital nor the will of the fans to do so. In fact i'd say that many of the fans weren't even asked and were not made aware of just how bad the situation was.(No criticism of Breedy et al here all).
4. Torquay didn't get any lucky cup draws so that option wasn't there.
5. The final option other than going bust was to 'gift' the club over to the only person interested which was CO, due to a loan that could not be paid back to him.
6. The rest, like TUFC is history.

This is the timeline of what i am thinking happened. Again, is this a fair and accurate series of events in blunt terms?

So in reality i'm wanting to know that for both cases, would fan input not have made a blind bit of difference anyway if it wasn't for the difference in luck that Dave points out with the cup draws?

If it weren't for Man Utd, then regardless of what the fan did would Exeter have gone bust quickly?

If it weren't for CO coming and taking over then in the absence of any other buyer would TUFC have gone bust quickly even with fan intervention?

stefano · Post by **stefano** » 26 Apr 2018, 14:34

fleetfanwest wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 10:26 Live in Somerset now.

Ah I get what Gateman meant now! He was on about your user name, not mine. Sorry, always been a bit thick but sometimes I take it to extremes!

gateman49 · Post by **gateman49** » 26 Apr 2018, 16:44

stefano wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 14:34 Ah I get what Gateman meant now! He was on about your user name, not mine. Sorry, always been a bit thick but sometimes I take it to extremes!

So he's up north.

Moving on, I suppose that next year we'll have to modify that well known ditty "you dirty northern b*******d" when/if we play Truro but we can hang on to it for the visits of the likes of W-S-M.

tomogull · Post by **tomogull** » 26 Apr 2018, 17:04

Yep - I think your Exeter/Torquay comparison is about right, Andy. Only caveat - Torquay - point 4. That's because we never get past bliddy Round 1 !!!!

chunkygull · Post by **chunkygull** » 26 Apr 2018, 18:43

Will we see an attendance below 1000 on Saturday?

Post by **Dave** » 26 Apr 2018, 19:39

The ground isn't going to be full of the normal once a year TUFC fan, that turn up to the last home game for their annual trip to plainmoor, but think the gate will be over 1,000.

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